65 replies to this topic

[Garrond]

I've now come across several threads with the following or similar statements in it:

User A: "I'd really like to see mech X in the game"
User B: "Probably won't get in, since it's reseen."

What are unseen/reseen mechs/mech designs?
What's so special about them?
Why do some people believe those mechs won't be in the game?
How to identify reseen/unseen mechs? Is there a list somewhere?

Only thing I learned so far is that sketches of reseen mechs (there was a thread some days ago) seem by far more detailed than the others.

[Viper69]

The unseen mechs are designs that have been litigated over for years. in my opinion I hope they dont touch them and let them go by the wayside. There are hundred of mechs available to design that arent litigated over. There is nothing special about them other than they are old iconic mech we old farts played table Top Battle Tech with.

[Xigunder Blue]

The only thing I have read about 'unseen' mechs is that a number of mech designs are owned by either an individual or a company and they have, up to now, refused to sell the license to use them. Speculation of course. My own favorite, the Maurauder, seems to be one of them. However it could also be (perhaps more likely) that these mechs are those which will be offered in the store for micro-transactions since Mechwarrior Online will need future revenue streams to stay in business. I do not know what 'reseen' means unless they are teasers for the store.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Honestly we should call them the re-discussed.

The unseen are the original 14 battlemech designs that came out in the original Battledroids and Battletech box sets (plus a few more designs that came along later). They were borrowed 100% from various anime titles, and the legal complications from that can and have filled many forums.

The re-seen are the new artworks that came along later to replace the copyright-plagued artwork. Because the images are so different, the community veterans have mixed feelings on them.

[bpphantom]

^^ That. Most of the unseen 'mechs were from various anime series and many, many years later they became reseen when their later 'mech models were updated and had brand new artwork done for them. However I hope that as the timeline rolls along they introduce the "reseen" versions at the appropriate points.

[Garrond]

Now I get it. Thx a lot.
Already thought about licensing-issues myself...

[SparkSovereign]

Harmony Gold owns the rights to all the images and artwork of a pile of mechs, referred to as the "unseen". They do not, however, own the mechs themselves. What this means is that any portrayal of these mechs has to be sufficiently different from the "unseen" version that it doesn't constitute copyright infringement. Somewhere in the 3060s there's a canonical redesign of these mechs, which changes them enough to get away from the licensing issues; these new designs are dubbed "reseen".

The "unseen" designs can't be in the game because of licensing problems, and the "reseen" designs are from a future time period and thus won't show up either. However, there is nothing stopping Piranha Games from developing their own take on these mechs and using that. As such, you might just get your Marauader; but it won't be either the unseen or reseen version.

[Tezkat]

Back when BattleTech (or for that matter, its predecessor Battledroids) was just a game for mecha fanboys, the mech designs were all blatant ripoffs of popular giant robot anime designs. For instance, the popular Warhammer mech, seen in the reboot teaser trailer, was initially a carbon copy of the Tomahawk/Excalibur Destroid from Macross/Robotech. Long story short, FASA got sued and couldn't display images of them anymore, even though by that point these mechs had become an iconic part of early gameplay and canon history/fiction. So they're quite popular, but including them is often more trouble than they're worth...

Edited by Tezkat, 13 July 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Garrond]

Well - so far I really like the models and designs for MWO. As long as the design looks great and gives me a vague hint of what original mech is behind it, I'm fine.

[Margali]

I'd been wondering about this as well.

Kind of a bummer, I was always fond of the Archer and the Rifleman. Guess we won't be seeing them in game either.

[Garrond]

Just looked the unseen designs up at sarna battletech wiki. Since I never played tabletop and just know the mechwarrior pc games, most of those mechs are unknown to me. but there were some i recognized and that i will really miss:
- Warhammer (Mechwarrior 2 & others)
- Marauder (Mechwarrior 2 & others)
- Rifleman (Mechwarrior 2)
- StoneRhino/Behemoth (Mechwarrior 2: Ghost bears legacy)
- Incubus/Vixen (Mechwarrior 2: Ghost bears legacy)

[Hunson Abadeer]

FASA received permission from Studio Nue to use some 'Mech designs back in the day, but the problem was that the same designs were also used in Macross (Studio Nue's work). Tatsunoko Productions, which came in later as a financial backer for Macross and took over foreign licensing, then worked with Harmony Gold to create Robotech with the latter having all licensing rights in the United States. Harmony Gold thus laid claim to Mecha designs that they had nothing to do with, and FASA decided it was not worth the time to fight it despite having permission from the people that actually designed the Mecha in question (Studio Nue).

It is especially sickening because Harmony Gold is just a shell that only exists to make money off of Robotech in the US. They do not do anything with any of it. They actually do real estate in California now, and their website is often down for long periods of time. The only reason they have for making a stink is because they claim that BattleTech is infringing about their rights to Robotech even though FASA's use of the 'Mechs in question stemmed from Studio Nue (the designers) rather than Robotech, and Harmony Gold has no intention to do anything with the Robotech franchise that would actually be in competition with BattleTech. They have not put out a movie since 2006, and the only movie coming down the pipeline is just a reworking of a 1985 movie. They are zombies living off of other people's creativity.

The "reseen" were done with Studio Nue, which still owns derivative works based on their original designs. As long as Harmony Gold exists and holds the rights to Robotech in the US, they are the evil gatekeepers. CBT would have to work with Studio Nue to parse out exactly how different the designs need to be so as to be considered derivative works unrelated to Macross and thus Robotech, or they have to find a way to get Harmony Gold to give them permission. Or just wait a few more years until Harmony Gold is just a hotdog cart with a Robotech sticker on the front next to a bus stop and then offer them $10 and some stale cookies.

I was a Robotech fan until they took away my BattleMaster and Marauder. I have refused to support HG in any way, shape, or form since then.

/rant

[Mu]

On the one hand, there's no reason for them not to be in. They're already redesigning every mech they put in so this is a non-issue.

On the other hand, if they were gonna show up, why haven't they yet? You'd think they would have at least given out a yes or no response.

They have specifically said in the past that they haven't been having legal issues even though the original trailer for the 3015 game had a Warhammer parading around. Different game, but it's far from unrelated.

Edit: weird double post issue, but here's the link I was trying to put in: https://twitter.com/...116058501885952

Edited by Mu, 13 July 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[Lightdragon]

Garrond, on 13 July 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Just looked the unseen designs up at sarna battletech wiki. Since I never played tabletop and just know the mechwarrior pc games, most of those mechs are unknown to me. but there were some i recognized and that i will really miss:
- Warhammer (Mechwarrior 2 & others)
- Marauder (Mechwarrior 2 & others)
- Rifleman (Mechwarrior 2)
- StoneRhino/Behemoth (Mechwarrior 2: Ghost bears legacy)
- Incubus/Vixen (Mechwarrior 2: Ghost bears legacy)

first problem being the marauder rifleman and warhammer you speak of are the clan versions in mech 2 and look far different from the original unseens

Margali, on 13 July 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'd been wondering about this as well.

Kind of a bummer, I was always fond of the Archer and the Rifleman. Guess we won't be seeing them in game either.

you may not see the rifleman.. but they added the jagermech which in cannon is just a redesigned rifleman with far more firepower and armor

[Gray Carlyle]

My first mech ever played in TT was the marauder, and it is still my favorite design.

I hope the make a new version of those famous "unseen" mechs, as they were all great looking designs.

Lightdragon, on 13 July 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

you may not see the rifleman.. but they added the jagermech which in cannon is just a redesigned rifleman with far more firepower and armor

Thats not correct, the jagermech weight more but has lesser firepower and armor than the rifleman.

Edited by Gray Carlyle, 13 July 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Gray Carlyle, on 13 July 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

My first mech ever played in TT was the marauder, and it is still my favorite design.

I hope the make a new version of those famous "unseen" mechs, as they were all great looking designs.

[Lightdragon]

Gray Carlyle, on 13 July 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

My first mech ever played in TT was the marauder, and it is still my favorite design.

I hope the make a new version of those famous "unseen" mechs, as they were all great looking designs.




Thats not correct, the jagermech weight more but has lesser firepower and armor than the rifleman.

wrong on the armor rifleman has the most laughable armor of all heavies, also their firepower is nearly equal though the jagermech has less heat problems swapping out the 2 heavy lasers for 2 more medium lasers and dual ac/2's but it is still essentially a rifleman on crack

[Damion Sparhawk]

Hunson Abadeer, on 13 July 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

FASA received permission from Studio Nue to use some 'Mech designs back in the day, but the problem was that the same designs were also used in Macross (Studio Nue's work). Tatsunoko Productions, which came in later as a financial backer for Macross and took over foreign licensing, then worked with Harmony Gold to create Robotech with the latter having all licensing rights in the United States. Harmony Gold thus laid claim to Mecha designs that they had nothing to do with, and FASA decided it was not worth the time to fight it despite having permission from the people that actually designed the Mecha in question (Studio Nue).

It is especially sickening because Harmony Gold is just a shell that only exists to make money off of Robotech in the US. They do not do anything with any of it. They actually do real estate in California now, and their website is often down for long periods of time. The only reason they have for making a stink is because they claim that BattleTech is infringing about their rights to Robotech even though FASA's use of the 'Mechs in question stemmed from Studio Nue (the designers) rather than Robotech, and Harmony Gold has no intention to do anything with the Robotech franchise that would actually be in competition with BattleTech. They have not put out a movie since 2006, and the only movie coming down the pipeline is just a reworking of a 1985 movie. They are zombies living off of other people's creativity.

The "reseen" were done with Studio Nue, which still owns derivative works based on their original designs. As long as Harmony Gold exists and holds the rights to Robotech in the US, they are the evil gatekeepers. CBT would have to work with Studio Nue to parse out exactly how different the designs need to be so as to be considered derivative works unrelated to Macross and thus Robotech, or they have to find a way to get Harmony Gold to give them permission. Or just wait a few more years until Harmony Gold is just a hotdog cart with a Robotech sticker on the front next to a bus stop and then offer them $10 and some stale cookies.

I was a Robotech fan until they took away my BattleMaster and Marauder. I have refused to support HG in any way, shape, or form since then.

/rant

this is the most detailed and in depth answer to this question I have seen to date, and it makes a lot more sense than many other responses, I've done a lot of research on the topic and everything that has been said here is either 100% true to something I've found in one place or another or, alluded to in some article or another, but a lot of the actual debate is shrouded in beaurocratic legalese and kept behind closed doors between FASA and Harmony Gold, I did read a few places that claimed FASA had permission from Studio Nue but have never really found unquestionable evidence (stands to reason if there were any unquestionable sources of this particular bit of evidence that the litigation would be over immediately, HG can hardly go and claim copyright infringement if the original artwork was given with permission that couldn't be contested) I'm not sure why, if true, the people behind Studio Nue wouldn't back up FASA but I wouldn't be surprised if it came down to HG buying the exclusive rights and the studio not bothering to correct it at the time

[Kovathos]

Not sure what all these unsee/reseen mechs/business is all about


but one thing ill say for sure


marauder is pretty bad *** to see in mechwarrior 4 mercs

[Shalmyan Moonsong]

@Hunson Abadeer

Umm the Battlemaster was not from, in or had anything to do with Robotech or Harmony Gold, It came from a Anime Series Called Dougram, which was kinda of pre-coursor to Heavy gear, but the Battlemaster was never EVER in Robotech and Harmony Gold had nothing to do with that mech becoming unseen, but it became unseen when lawsuits started coming in from other companies besides Harmony Gold, that FASA also extended thier use of these desings well after the right of thier contracts.

I'm a huge Battletech fan and a fan of the unseen and thier place in history, the biggiest problem was once FASA's contacts, with Harmony Gold, Dougram,and Crusher Joe were done, they continued to use the images knowingly for years after thier rights to those images had ended, and I want to say the people behind Crusher Joe (who own the images of the Locust, and many areo-space fighters and tanks) issied the first cease and desist order, Then Harmony Gold (Pheinox Hawk, Stinger, Wasp, Archer, Muraduer, Warhammer, Rifleman, Ostol, Longbow, Crusader) and Dougram (Griffin, Battlemaster, Scorpian, Thunderbolt, Wolverine, Goliath, Shadowhawk) fallowed suit. Has Harmony Gold made the biggest stink of it, yes, was FASA in the wrong and knew they were in the wrong and profited greatly from these images, YES, FASA sure as hell was not the victem in these suits, Harmony Gold and Dougram protected thier designs that FASA used for a good 10 years without paying royalties, and then got mad when Harmony Gold came asking for thier money.

and in regards to someone else who posted after I made this post, Harmony gold did not own the designs Studio Nue did, but they gave all US distribution rights to ALL thier designs and properties to Harmony Gold, whom they expected to use those rights, images and products to make money and in the US and send Studio Nue thier cut back to japan, it was Studio Nue's way of being in the US market without ever having to leave japan, and rake in the money from thier work.

Edited by Shalmyan Moonsong, 13 July 2012 - 05:54 PM.