22 replies to this topic

[JesterMWO]

...my Bj1 loves the ac2 cooldown buff it gets in return. It`s back to being pretty fragile but a lot of people ignore the Blackjack to focus on bigger targets, which is fine by me.

With dual ac2s and quad medium lasers (11 double heatsinks) I can take heat up to just below shutdown but still hold down the fire button on the ac2s without shutting down.

No more quirk changes on BJ1 now, please.

[Revis Volek]

JesterMWO, on 16 February 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

...my Bj1 loves the ac2 cooldown buff it gets in return. It`s back to being pretty fragile but a lot of people ignore the Blackjack to focus on bigger targets, which is fine by me.

With dual ac2s and quad medium lasers (11 double heatsinks) I can take heat up to just below shutdown but still hold down the fire button on the ac2s without shutting down.

No more quirk changes on BJ1 now, please.

Good thing you are fine with it i guess because it isnt getting rolled back as far as I know, they still have half the structure boost they did or close to so they cant be that fragile. Not like they were at least...

This isnt going to get rolled back IMO, when a mech with a Cherry red CT can take and AC20 to the face and not even worry about it killing him there is a problem. Its was also bad for game play to have enforcers drop like 50 tonners should and BJ's tanks like 200 tonners.

[JesterMWO]

I think they are about right now. They were too fragile before structure quirks, too tanky after, so halfway is fine by me.

[Y E O N N E]

Revis Volek, on 16 February 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Good thing you are fine with it i guess because it isnt getting rolled back as far as I know, they still have half the structure boost they did or close to so they cant be that fragile. Not like they were at least...

This isnt going to get rolled back IMO, when a mech with a Cherry red CT can take and AC20 to the face and not even worry about it killing him there is a problem. Its was also bad for game play to have enforcers drop like 50 tonners should and BJ's tanks like 200 tonners.

But is it bad for a Storm Crow to tank like a 200 tonner? Because it does.

Maybe from a tonnage standpoint it was bad for gameplay (and I still maintain that particular angle as bullsh*t), but from an actual "here's me on the field fighting other arbitrary 'Mechs" standpoint it was irrelevant because there are quite a few 'Mechs that seem incredibly adept at spreading damage and not dying as quickly as expected.

Anyway, the Blackjack is essentially back to where it was before the December patch in terms of structure boosts. Nobody complained about it back then and, in fact, it wasn't even considered comp despite actually being more powerful on its own than it currently is.

Blackjack is now fine.

Also, to OP...AC/2 are magical; drop-all-your-other-guns-and-cram-ALL-THE-AMMO-magical!

[Wattila]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

But is it bad for a Storm Crow to tank like a 200 tonner? Because it does.

Sure, if you don't leg it like everyone else does.

[Y E O N N E]

Wattila, on 16 February 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Sure, if you don't leg it like everyone else does.

And that doesn't apply to the Blackjack...how?

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

But is it bad for a Storm Crow to tank like a 200 tonner? Because it does.

The SCR is not nearly as tanky as people make it out to be.

Stop shooting arms, STs, and everything else that has been blown off trying to hit CT. Shoot legs, SCR dies.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

And that doesn't apply to the Blackjack...how?

BJ is about 1/2 the size of SCR for starters...it is low to the ground, and a small mech model with good hitboxes...

[Y E O N N E]

For the record, I always shoot Storm Crow legs.

I also always shoot Blackjack legs. It can't shield them an better than a Storm Crow can. See leg, will take.

I'm not saying the Blackjack wasn't too good for its weight, I'm just saying that weight is a terrible way to balance because every 'Mech occupies the same amount of player potential on a given team. The threat-level you have to prepare against as a team is set by the most powerful 'Mech on the field. Whether that's an Atlas, a Timber Wolf, a Blackjack or a Locust is mechanically irrelevant.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

For the record, I always shoot Storm Crow legs.

I also always shoot Blackjack legs. It can't shield them an better than a Storm Crow can. See leg, will take.

I'm not saying the Blackjack wasn't too good for its weight, I'm just saying that weight is a terrible way to balance because every 'Mech occupies the same amount of player potential on a given team. The threat-level you have to prepare against as a team is set by the most powerful 'Mech on the field. Whether that's an Atlas, a Timber Wolf, a Blackjack or a Locust is mechanically irrelevant.

Except when drop tonnage plays a role in what you can effectively bring to battle.

If this were still 3/3/3/3 I would perhaps grant you some truth in that. However, in the days where a full 12 man can only bring 600 tons in group queue, a BJ looks like a great slot for a 65 tonner's armor/structure, and 45 tons of weight in your deck.

[Ted Wayz]

Revis Volek, on 16 February 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

This isnt going to get rolled back IMO, when a mech with a Cherry red CT can take and AC20 to the face and not even worry about it killing him there is a problem.

Like the Artic Cheetah. Which can take two AC20 shots to a cherry red CT at point blank.

Broken hit boxes>>>>structure quirks.

Now go home you dirty clammer.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Except when drop tonnage plays a role in what you can effectively bring to battle.

If this were still 3/3/3/3 I would perhaps grant you some truth in that. However, in the days where a full 12 man can only bring 600 tons in group queue, a BJ looks like a great slot for a 65 tonner's armor/structure, and 45 tons of weight in your deck.

I went around this with Tarogato, and now I'll do it with you:

Drop tonnage does nothing but herd players into 'Mechs near the average weight that provide the best set of trade-offs. If the drop weight is 480 tons for an 8-man team, then you are probably going to see 8 Quickdraws because anything else is more of a gamble (bring assaults, risk being too slow; bring lights, risk being under-gunned and under-armored, etc.). And, at any rate, you have the same number of players on both sides: with a tonnage or even class restriction, you are forcing some of them to play under their potential by dropping in objectively worse machines relative to others in the match. Conceptually, that is something only the mentally deficient would condone for a competitive game environment.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Except when drop tonnage plays a role in what you can effectively bring to battle.

If this were still 3/3/3/3 I would perhaps grant you some truth in that. However, in the days where a full 12 man can only bring 600 tons in group queue, a BJ looks like a great slot for a 65 tonner's armor/structure, and 45 tons of weight in your deck.

I'll interject here and note that pretty much the entire purpose of tonnage limits was to control people spamming lots of heavies/assaults, which would normally make their team pretty much autowin because those mechs are often better mechs. They would basically steamroll everything effortlessly.

However, if the condition of bigger being better was no longer the case, then tonnage limits would no longer be "needed" to control a hypothetical heavy/assault meta because the other classes would be just as effective as they are.


TL;DR: Tonnage limits are a symptom of the fact that bigger is better, a byproduct of the Battletech IP's construction system.

Edited by FupDup, 16 February 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

FupDup, on 16 February 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'll interject here and note that pretty much the entire purpose of tonnage limits was to control people spamming lots of heavies/assaults, which would normally make their team pretty much autowin because those mechs are often better mechs. They would basically steamroll everything effortlessly.

However, if the condition of bigger being better was no longer the case, then tonnage limits would no longer be "needed" to control a hypothetical heavy/assault meta because the other classes would be just as effective as they are.


TL;DR: Tonnage limits are a symptom of the fact that bigger is better, a byproduct of the Battletech IP's construction system.

PGI's original pre-release statements included the idea that there would be no "arms race for weight" and that bigger would not represent better.

Dropdecks say that their plan did not work. And this is to be expected, based on how BattleTech works.

If you disagree, then answer me this:
What advantage does a 50 ton Medium Mech with a 250 engine have have over a 70 ton Heavy Mech with a 350 engine? They have the same top speed, but the Heavy Mech will have much more armor and structure, AND either equal or more firepower.

[Ted Wayz]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Except when drop tonnage plays a role in what you can effectively bring to battle.

If this were still 3/3/3/3 I would perhaps grant you some truth in that. However, in the days where a full 12 man can only bring 600 tons in group queue, a BJ looks like a great slot for a 65 tonner's armor/structure, and 45 tons of weight in your deck.

Wow, the Crow sounds bad. Is that why people used to bring three of them to CW?

Bogus argument is bogus. Because taking out the legs of a mech that can outmaneuver, outrun and outgun anything in its weight class is not as easy as it seems. A crow could easily take out the mega structure BJ unless you are really, really, really bad to the point that you can't stay upright on a crow crutch.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 16 February 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Quote

What advantage does a 50 ton Medium Mech with a 250 engine have have over a 70 ton Heavy Mech with a 350 engine? They have the same top speed, but the Heavy Mech will have much more armor and structure, AND either equal or more firepower.

Why are you assuming that they would use those engines? What about XLs? There can be as much difference between a 50 ton mech and a 55 ton mech as there is between a 50 ton and 70 ton mech. That is not even mentioning hardpoint and hit box layouts.

[FupDup]

Tickdoff Tank, on 16 February 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Why are you assuming that they would use those engines? What about XLs? There can be as much difference between a 50 ton mech and a 55 ton mech as there is between a 50 ton and 70 ton mech. That is not even mentioning hardpoint and hit box layouts.

Hardpoints and hitboxes aren't connected to tonnage (they're arbitrary, based on stock builds/artwork), so for these kinds of comparisons we have to assume that "all else is equal." Take a blank gunbag of X tonnage and compare it to another blank gunbag of Y tonnage.

[Go-NoGo]

JesterMWO, on 16 February 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

...my Bj1 loves the ac2 cooldown buff it gets in return. It`s back to being pretty fragile but a lot of people ignore the Blackjack to focus on bigger targets, which is fine by me.

With dual ac2s and quad medium lasers (11 double heatsinks) I can take heat up to just below shutdown but still hold down the fire button on the ac2s without shutting down.

No more quirk changes on BJ1 now, please.

You're a more patient & reasonable person than I: I sold my BJ's -->though I only ever used -1X and -3 for fun little builds based entirely on being an armadillo-sized rhinoceros. I sold those 2, and that dust-gathering -1, and bought the utmost tier of ultra-meta-ruling mechs: a Cat K2, 2 FS's (you can guess which), and had enough in-game $$$ left to cry over how much MORE $$$ is needed in-game for me to ever max another TWO Mad Cats!

[Revis Volek]

Ted Wayz, on 16 February 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

Like the Artic Cheetah. Which can take two AC20 shots to a cherry red CT at point blank.

Broken hit boxes>>>>structure quirks.

Now go home you dirty clammer.

Im not a clanner or a sphereoid im an MWO pilot, i play for both sides. The picture next to my name is out of my control because i play with a unit.

I never seen an ACH that didnt die when i hit it (actually hit it) with an AC20, they fall down and go boom just like SCR;s which are not tanky like the BJ was a up until this patch.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 February 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

For the record, I always shoot Storm Crow legs.

I also always shoot Blackjack legs. It can't shield them an better than a Storm Crow can. See leg, will take.

I'm not saying the Blackjack wasn't too good for its weight, I'm just saying that weight is a terrible way to balance because every 'Mech occupies the same amount of player potential on a given team. The threat-level you have to prepare against as a team is set by the most powerful 'Mech on the field. Whether that's an Atlas, a Timber Wolf, a Blackjack or a Locust is mechanically irrelevant.

To the comp player the BJ being good isnt an issue, but to the random pug when x amount of shots kills one 50 tonner and it is double for another it makes you go "hmmm". It was bad and if it wasnt why did they change it?

Also, BJ were absolutely COMP as all hell for the past month or so that they have been buffed, have you not see massive amount of Black jacks used during say Bandits New Year in the Inner Sphere?

They were the best 50 tonner to bring, they are still pretty good but they dont have the armor of mechs 30 tons heavier.

Edited by Revis Volek, 17 February 2016 - 01:18 AM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Revis Volek, on 17 February 2016 - 01:03 AM, said:

Im not a clanner or a sphereoid im an MWO pilot, i play for both sides. The picture next to my name is out of my control because i play with a unit.

I never seen an ACH that didnt die when i hit it (actually hit it) with an AC20, they fall down and go boom just like SCR;s which are not tanky like the BJ was a up until this patch.





To the comp player the BJ being good isnt an issue, but to the random pug when x amount of shots kills one 50 tonner and it is double for another it makes you go "hmmm". It was bad and if it wasnt why did they change it?

Also, BJ were absolutely COMP and all hell for the past month or so that they have been buffed, have you not see massive amount of Black jacks used during say Bandits New Year in the Inner Sphere?

They were the best 50 tonner to bring, they are still pretty good but they dont have the armor of mechs 30 tons heavier.

*45

[Revis Volek]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 17 February 2016 - 01:09 AM, said:

*45

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