114 replies to this topic

[AssaultPig]

I was disappointed that there weren't more 'compensatory' buffs to other quirks, especially for stuff like the top dog that had a big range quirk and nothing else.

in the broad sense it doesn't really seem like they have any idea what they're doing with weapon balance; if you now think ERllas outranging clan equivalents is a big problem, why implement it in the first place? What changed?

[pwnface]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Well stop being coy, tell me what is (it has AC2s doesn't it) .

Btw, it isn't just about adjusted DPS either, the Dakka Whale can manage to put out a lot of damage before it starts to hit jams, which is what really matters and makes the Whale potent enough.

There is an MX90 build that can match the DWF 3xUAC5 2xUAC10 build.

After testing we found that depending on jams it's between 10-20 +/- damage on the target over the amount of time it takes to burn down an assault mech. Firepower wise, it is amazing. It does have some drawbacks though.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

2 LPL-4-6 ERML, I preferred the 6 prior to the QKD-4G nerf simply because you needed to maximize the damage you hit them with because they would be able to out-poke you, heat efficiency be damned.

I quite agree, you hit them harder, once or twice, than he can hit you in three or four times, yeah, heat's a non-issue.

Quote

Your build hinges on him making mistakes, and there you have the beginning of the problem.

And your pessimism hinges on the belief that the enemy will NEVER make a mistake, which is the beginning of the problem from the opposite side.

I assume I'll make mistakes, I just have WORK HARD to make a few less than the other guy...

Quote

I'm know very well what it is capable of, but despite that, it is a very niche design. Other mechs offer much more versatility and use cases.

Hell, the DW has maximum build potential when it comes to damage options, it's just its lack speed, and limited torso twisting (thank f'ing god) that limits it.

My favorite DWF build is the Gausszilla. Nothing is more fun than 4 gauss...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

And your pessimism hinges on the belief that the enemy will NEVER make a mistake, which is the beginning of the problem from the opposite side.

I assume I'll make mistakes, I just have WORK HARD to make a few less than the other guy...

I don't disagree, but within the context of balance discussions, you should assume that both are on the top of their game, and like I said, if this test were repeated, the Quickdraw would win more often than not.

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Hell, the DW has maximum build potential when it comes to damage options, it's just its lack speed, and limited torso twisting (thank f'ing god) that limits it.

My favorite DWF build is the Gausszilla. Nothing is more fun than 4 gauss...

Point is, it is still not a goto mech, it is really really good at what it does, but what it does isn't as useful anymore.

[Eider]

You got to be kidding me with the bs, we all know clan XL is the best engine and its reasons. We all know they have the better weapons and in your scenarios the IS pilot would have to be godly compare to the clan mech in order to win. This is also includes them having the best build for their hardpoints where as the clan mech can just meta anything.

[Gas Guzzler]

These Clan vs IS balance discussions have become so meaningless. I am getting less intelligent reading this crap. It basically all boils down to "Your advantage is more useful than my advantage!"

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

These Clan vs IS balance discussions have become so meaningless. I am getting less intelligent reading this crap. It basically all boils down to "Your advantage is more useful than my advantage!"

This was my response to Dimento in another thread, and I am going to leave it here as well because pertinent:

Quote

If your game is balanced to the point that the meta min-maxers cannot abuse it enough to gain more than a very slight edge...by default, the rest of the player base will have a balanced game, because they could not possibly min/max any harder than the people that live for it.

The issue here is you compare base stats, but a handful of clan mechs have quirks, and fewer of those are for things that actually matter. Meanwhile, nearly every IS mech has a stack of quirks ranging from agility to bonus structure, heat generation, range, beam duration, cooldown, missile spread...etc.

The other issue is that with the game in the current state it is in, finding an actual 95% harmonious balance point will be virtually impossible.

The way this should be accomplished is the following:

1.) remove all quirks period. ALL QUIRKS.

2.) Restore the skill tree (because it was simply a clan blanket nerf in disguise)

3.) Bring in IS T2 tech comparable to that which the clans have, and any tech clans do not have a counterpart for needs the clan versions brought in. (ER lasers, streaks, UACs/RACs, MRMs, XPL, LFE, CHS, etc.)

4.) Build your balance around face time exposure from beam weapons, and balance that DPS against PP FLD weapons for both sides accounting for the new T2 tech

5.) Run about 3-4 test server iterations with the equipment introduced for a week at a time and make adjustments accordingly.

6.) Once the internal balance passes and test server changes are approved for live push it to the servers and WAIT. Let it marinade for about 2-3 months and gather data.

7.) Reintroduce quirks for mechs that are showing to underperform and boost agility/structure lightly, with perhaps some weapons quirks thrown in for flavor. (We are talking quirks in the range of 5-15% tops to any one attribute)

8.) Enjoy your now balanced game, continually make small adjustments as weapons and chassis evolve/get introduced, and profit.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 February 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

I don't disagree, but within the context of balance discussions, you should assume that both are on the top of their game, and like I said, if this test were repeated, the Quickdraw would win more often than not.

I disagree about assuming "top of game", for a game written for people to play, I'd start with assuming they are human and more often prone to error than not.

Quote

Point is, it is still not a goto mech, it is really really good at what it does, but what it does isn't as useful anymore.

Then I guess everyone should stop bringing them to CW, etc.

[Ted Wayz]

CK16, on 17 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

So many IS tears over this...

I find it funny that they felt it was perfectly fine that some IS chassis could out range clan ER Large Laser....that should never ever happen....I am not going to go Clan should be supper buffed and trump IS but IS specially in lasers range shouldn't have an edge over clans. The burn time as well so pretty annoying from my perspective. I stand by the point that before last patch, IS META builds > Clan META builds by far, now it's a little better, in general yes, Clan is better in an overall sense, but things are very different in the Meta game between the two and the power switches from Clan to IS.

Very short sighted comment. If we had Stars v lances and Clan players played like Clan pilots okay.

But given this is MWO and not BT. Given that the majority play in pub play not CW and this has an unbalancing effect on pub queue. This change made absolutely zero sense.

Quirks on IS mechs have never made them the most powerful mech in their weight class ever. The most powerful mechs in each weight class have always been clan mechs and the current changes only widen the gap. Why?

Because broken hit boxes >>> armor and structure quirks. Because 10m extra range is inconsequential when facing a mech of the same tonnage with more speed and more maneuverability which allows it to get within its optimal range while taking limited damage due to broken hit boxes to deliver an Alpha, which is significantly higher than yours, repeatedly.

And while you are saying "where did my side torso go?" or "but I hit that light in the CT twice with an AC20 but it isn't even cherry" or "where did all those streak 6's come from", they are merrily moving on to their next target.

Now here is the kicker. Those mastery packs in the store are all IS, who wants one now? Once again PGI finds a way to marginalize their MC sales.

So freakin' dumb!

[Vashramire]

I don't really feel the pain of the range nerf that bad and I run IS exclusively. Maybe it's because I don't have a Top Dog that I can't really cry, but I never saw them impress me in the first place. Range advantage should go to clanners anyways. People who drop high damage with 270m srm's don't complain about getting into range to do damage. If you are a good pilot you will use cover and smart movement to put yourself in a position to deal optimal damage. Range quirks getting dropped isn't the end of the world and if certain mechs need brought up then they can get laser specific buffs or whatever to bring them back up. It was nice having 511m IS LPL or 351m IS ML, but having to get closer when most matches end in a brawl anyways isn't really feeling unfair.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 February 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

Ancient Liao Proverb says "buy mechs based on quirks, much salt is in your future".

Pfft, I have been buying my mechs based on high mounted hardpoints and hitboxes since long time ago. CW is a different beast, where every single advantage reverberates into the next wave, and owning multiple mechs of the same exact variant is a norm. Therefore I chase quirks for CW.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 February 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yes, it wouldn't be a landslide, but I would be willing to bet prior to the patch, the Quickdraw could win more often than not in a 1 on 1 situation.

You honestly don't see why that's not quantifiable evidence and not something you use as your focal point of evidence as to why a mech, weapon, etc. should be adjusted?

This is why many on here just outright dismiss "evidence" provided by the player base. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen (in nearly 4 years mind you) player evidence that actually provided enough statistical data and cross-references that they were a good STARTING point to form an idea.

Your example is too simplistic even for that honestly.

What about pilot skill?
What about different builds?
What about different variants?
What about all of the other factors that you completely disregarded...?

There's a reason statistical data is hard to collect and provide unbiased results with.

Playing a game for a few matches with friends on a private server is NOT a good sample size and offers zero control.

Eider, on 17 February 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

You got to be kidding me with the bs, we all know clan XL is the best engine and its reasons. We all know they have the better weapons and in your scenarios the IS pilot would have to be godly compare to the clan mech in order to win. This is also includes them having the best build for their hardpoints where as the clan mech can just meta anything.

....
then you have the other side....


Define "best"

Not, webster's definition, YOUR definition in this specific context.

[pwnface]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

I disagree about assuming "top of game", for a game written for people to play, I'd start with assuming they are human and more often prone to error than not.

Balance should always be top down. Make the gameplay balanced assuming the highest possible skill being equal on both sides. This makes a more fairly balanced game for everyone.

[Sandpit]

pwnface, on 18 February 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

Balance should always be top down. Make the gameplay balanced assuming the highest possible skill being equal on both sides. This makes a more fairly balanced game for everyone.

^^
I think top-end is where balance should begin as well. You don't base balance on the top-end because that's generally a small sliver of the player base overall, but you use it as a starting point. Then you balance down from there making it "most balanced" for the 80% on the bell curve.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 18 February 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

What about pilot skill?
What about different builds?
What about different variants?
What about all of the other factors that you completely disregarded...?

Sandpit, on 18 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

^^
I think top-end is where balance should begin as well. You don't base balance on the top-end because that's generally a small sliver of the player base overall, but you use it as a starting point. Then you balance down from there making it "most balanced" for the 80% on the bell curve.

You answered yourself, the reason you balance top-down is because you want to account for things with high skill caps to try and reduce the impact player skill has on balance discussion.

As for different builds/variants if you are trying to balance things, you have to have a baseline for effectiveness, and if you are balancing top-down, that is whatever is meta, provided the gameplay at the top-end is the ideal gameplay.

I'm not trying to magically hand-wave other factors either, the QKD-4G was better than the Eb Jag prior to the nerf according to the top-end of the spectrum, all I'm trying to do is explain to you guys why that was and why it was a bit out of line with the Clan mechs. Most comp players have no vested interest in making either side better than the other, all most of us want is balanced gameplay that allows for more viable variants and more depth.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 February 2016 - 01:56 PM.