214 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

I love this. Really, this is just so...so perfectly MWO.

It had gotten to the point where people begging for Flamer fixes in literally every Town Hall ever was a running joke with NGNG.

Piranha rebuilds flamers to actually be able to do their jobs, and what does the forum do?

Explode in geysers of salt-laden nerdrage and demand, in something like five hundred and seventy-three threads, that Piranha NERF DA FLAMAHZ AGAIN.

No wonder this game never gets anywhere. Piranha is actually, physically incapable of winning. By this point they've been browbeaten over miscommunication so much they can't not follow the idiotic advice of the headless faceless brainless mass of sheer lunacy that is The MWO Community(C), and said community couldn't figure out how to find its *** with both hands and a GPS system if we gave it a year to do it in.

This is such a hilarious case-in-point situation it makes me cry.

[wanderer]

Pssh. It's not how much damage a flamer does. It's how much damage a flamer prevents.

Four Clantech flamers are two tons and quite enough to bake a 'Mech, then pulse it repeatedly to keep it baked without heat issues as your -other- guns lovingly gank the target. Heck, even two flamers will do the trick. Just slightly slower, but that's assuming your target was "cold" to begin with, a situation that rarely lasts long in combat.

That's 1-2 tons and two energy hardpoints to throttle most of your opponent's firepower at brawl ranges.

[Deathlike]

1453 R, on 17 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I love this. Really, this is just so...so perfectly MWO.

It had gotten to the point where people begging for Flamer fixes in literally every Town Hall ever was a running joke with NGNG.

Piranha rebuilds flamers to actually be able to do their jobs, and what does the forum do?

Explode in geysers of salt-laden nerdrage and demand, in something like five hundred and seventy-three threads, that Piranha NERF DA FLAMAHZ AGAIN.

No wonder this game never gets anywhere. Piranha is actually, physically incapable of winning. By this point they've been browbeaten over miscommunication so much they can't not follow the idiotic advice of the headless faceless brainless mass of sheer lunacy that is The MWO Community(C), and said community couldn't figure out how to find its *** with both hands and a GPS system if we gave it a year to do it in.

This is such a hilarious case-in-point situation it makes me cry.

You miss the part of the actual argument where the buff to usefulness outweighs the balance implication of the exploit/abuse/low heat generation.

There's a benefit to cost ratio... where if the benefits outweigh the costs, chances are, it's OP or at least ridiculous at the very least. If the benefits are worse than the cost, then it's not taken at all (hello MGs).


The previous incarnation of Flamers was that it generated next to nil heat on the target mech at a terribly slow rate while you wasted your time heating yourself up for some random reason (although, the exploit probably existed or worked previously, but it wasn't even worth running due to the heat gains).


So, it's kind of one of those things that Paul is pretty great at overbuffing and overnerfing. Is there a middle ground? There should be, but it's not been something he's really done a good job at.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 February 2016 - 04:55 PM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Piranha rebuilds flamers to actually be able to do their jobs, and what does the forum do?

Points out that they made them into heat-neutral weapons capable of locking a 'Mech at 90% heat load because they're actually buggy?

Heck,they're actually massively superior to TT ones at this point.

[Eider]

Lets be honest for a moment. The real issue is that everyone is laser vomit meta, flamers hurt this bad so they all crying about it.

[VorpalAnvil]

Eider, on 17 February 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Lets be honest for a moment. The real issue is that everyone is laser vomit meta, flamers hurt this bad so they all crying about it.

Quick, list for my ignorant lazor boating evil meta-tryhard *** all of the builds that can effectively defend themselves while hovering at 90% heat...

[Metus regem]

Heh makes the 7MG SadCat kind of bad ***.... LOL!

[Mystere]

Jaymes Valluche, on 17 February 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

I agree that the ability to use the macros to circumvent the prices associated with the weapon is stupid.
I also agree that the flamers prolly shouldn't allow you to indefinitely stun-lock someone. I'd prefer it if the system in place made it less viable to continue shutting them down after the initial shutdown. Not impossible, but less viable, requiring a more dedicated setup and perhaps more skill.
I don't quite agree that Flamers are OP. Flamers kill because people use bad tactics, not because they shut 'Mechs down.

I have two things.

First, it is impossible for any number of flamers to stun lock you, much less indefinitely. You will have to do that to yourself.

Secondly, in the underlined quote above, are you asking for a new mechanic called "Negative Ghost Heat"?

[1453 R]

wanderer, on 17 February 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Points out that they made them into heat-neutral weapons capable of locking a 'Mech at 90% heat load because they're actually buggy?

Heck,they're actually massively superior to TT ones at this point.

No, no.

A small handful of players are trying to point this out. The vast majority of the forum userbase is just screaming "OPIEOPIEOPIE! NERF NOW!! GOD DAMNIT PIRANHA!!!", as loudly as they can, over and over and over and over and over again.

Do I understand the macro argument? Yes, of course. Me, I see it more as evidence that macros are bulls*** than anything else, but yes - I get that chain-firing flamers, or otherwise bursting their use, can lock a target at 90% heat without much cost to the firing 'Mech. Y'know, other than multiple (generally) precious energy hardpoints and a requirement for both face time and remaining within a 90m effective maximum range. Even then, however, yes, I do see the point a small handful of players are making.

I just find it hilarious that the overwhelming booming din of the forums at large is, within hours of downloading the patch, already demanding that PGI return flamers to the state which they have spent the last three years demanding that PGI uplift flamers out of.

Is it any wonder we can't have nice things?

[DownRightFierce]

Eider, on 17 February 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Lets be honest for a moment. The real issue is that everyone is laser vomit meta, flamers hurt this bad so they all crying about it.

The problem is that you are locked at 90% heat, there isn't much you can return fire with at that point.

[Pjwned]

1453 R, on 17 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I love this. Really, this is just so...so perfectly MWO.

It had gotten to the point where people begging for Flamer fixes in literally every Town Hall ever was a running joke with NGNG.

Piranha rebuilds flamers to actually be able to do their jobs, and what does the forum do?

Explode in geysers of salt-laden nerdrage and demand, in something like five hundred and seventy-three threads, that Piranha NERF DA FLAMAHZ AGAIN.

No wonder this game never gets anywhere. Piranha is actually, physically incapable of winning. By this point they've been browbeaten over miscommunication so much they can't not follow the idiotic advice of the headless faceless brainless mass of sheer lunacy that is The MWO Community(C), and said community couldn't figure out how to find its *** with both hands and a GPS system if we gave it a year to do it in.

This is such a hilarious case-in-point situation it makes me cry.

It should go without saying that people wanted flamer buffs that actually made sense and not introduce exploits that allow people to essentially circumvent any heat generation from flamers--so...you know, PGI actually doing a good job.

What this actually shows is PGI taking another potentially good idea and screwing it up yet again and players going "WELL PGI CAN'T WIN BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT THEM TO DO A GOOD JOB HUH HUH HURR HURR DURR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Otto Cannon]

1453 R, on 17 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

I love this. Really, this is just so...so perfectly MWO.

It had gotten to the point where people begging for Flamer fixes in literally every Town Hall ever was a running joke with NGNG.

Piranha rebuilds flamers to actually be able to do their jobs, and what does the forum do?

Explode in geysers of salt-laden nerdrage and demand, in something like five hundred and seventy-three threads, that Piranha NERF DA FLAMAHZ AGAIN.

No wonder this game never gets anywhere. Piranha is actually, physically incapable of winning. By this point they've been browbeaten over miscommunication so much they can't not follow the idiotic advice of the headless faceless brainless mass of sheer lunacy that is The MWO Community(C), and said community couldn't figure out how to find its *** with both hands and a GPS system if we gave it a year to do it in.

This is such a hilarious case-in-point situation it makes me cry.

If they had made flamers work properly you'd have a point, but they didn't so you don't.

It is typical MWO, just not in the way you meant. PGI are masters at nerfing and buffing in the worst ways possible while completely missing the obvious sensible balance points that other devs would go to in the first place.

[Mystere]

Troutmonkey, on 17 February 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

That's not really the point. It doesn't matter whether they're OP or not. Russ has gone ahead and said that an exploit is A-OK because it's not game breaking or OP.

What it really means for flamer users is that flamers still suck, but an exploit can make them marginally effective. We shouldn't need to use an exploit to get those results! If those results are okay, then those results should happen with regular use too

Ahem! From Russ' own words, he specifically said that they are not an exploit. <smh>

[Bilbo]

1453 R, on 17 February 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

No, no.

A small handful of players are trying to point this out. The vast majority of the forum userbase is just screaming &quot;OPIEOPIEOPIE! NERF NOW!! GOD DAMNIT PIRANHA!!!&quot;, as loudly as they can, over and over and over and over and over again.

Do I understand the macro argument? Yes, of course. Me, I see it more as evidence that macros are bulls*** than anything else, but yes - I get that chain-firing flamers, or otherwise bursting their use, can lock a target at 90% heat without much cost to the firing 'Mech. Y'know, other than multiple (generally) precious energy hardpoints and a requirement for both face time and remaining within a 90m effective maximum range. Even then, however, yes, I do see the point a small handful of players are making.

I just find it hilarious that the overwhelming booming din of the forums at large is, within hours of downloading the patch, already demanding that PGI return flamers to the state which they have spent the last three years demanding that PGI uplift flamers out of.

Is it any wonder we can't have nice things?

I don't want them returned to their previous state. I just want the state they are in to be... not broken.

[Troutmonkey]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Ahem! From Russ' own words, he specifically said that they are not an exploit. <smh>

Regardless of what Russ says, the system is designed for the weapon to be used in a certain way. By using an unconventional firing method (either manually or macros) they can be made to work with zero impact on the user. If this was how they were intended to work, then they should do so in all scenarios, not just the unconventional ones.

[pwnface]

oh hey I'm Twitter famous

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 17 February 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

Piranha rebuilds flamers to actually be able to do their jobs, and what does the forum do?

Actually, all they did, aside from visuals, was change 2 Attributes.

'heatdamage="0.0"' was changed to 4.5

'heatinctime'="6.25"' was changed to 4.75


That's the only mechanical change: Instead of starting at ZERO heat for the target, it now starts at 4.5, then the multiplier kicks in at the same 3s period, but shorter for the shooter (at 4.75 instead of 6.something)

Oh, and gimping their damage, of course

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 February 2016 - 05:13 PM.

[Kraftwerkedup]

This game is developed by morons.

[Alistair Winter]

It's almost as if the decision to communicate via Twitter is proving to be unfortunate when you need to communicate problems that can't be expressed properly with 140 characters.

[Deathlike]

Kraftwerkedup, on 17 February 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

This game is developed by morons.

Well... it's "balanced" by one at the very least.

Alistair Winter, on 17 February 2016 - 05:12 PM, said:

It's almost as if the decision to communicate via Twitter is proving to be unfortunate when you need to communicate problems that can't be expressed properly with 140 characters.

So, buff Twitter?

Edited by Deathlike, 17 February 2016 - 05:13 PM.