22 replies to this topic

[Ritual Hammer]

Is it worth while to build a direct support fire mech if you only play in PUG? I have 4 AC/2s on a Jager and I love the out damage output. I try to hang back and look for fights that are already developed into a brawl, stay at range and lay into them from range, targeting weak spots. Problem is though is that I'm just playing PUG and there is a snowballs chance in hell that I'm going to get any lights or mediums to offer protection. So, yeah, the 4 AC/2s have a higher DPS than 2 AC/20s and lighter, but of course, my build requires total face time while other heavies can just burst and hide and I end up dying or almost dead from my first brawl. Should I wait until I get into CW before I try to build for fire support and just swap out those AC/2s for something better for brawling?

[DrRedCoat]

I do the same build on my Rifleman and it works. It's actually one of my consistently higher damage mechs and I mostly play in PUG. It works better in coordinated group play but you should be fine. You just gotta nail down positioning and timing. Always coordinate your pokes with your assaults. As a mech that requires long face-time, you'll really benefit by fully utilizing the long range of AC2s. Many mechs that don't immediately back up from the AC2 barrage often can't deal any significant damage at that range. It'll often be worth it to facetank return fire since the damage you are taking is nothing in comparison to what you're dishing out. Learning when you can and can't do that will be invaluable to succeeding with that build in PUG.

[stealthraccoon]

I wouldn't say you are wasting your time, but it can certainly be limiting on your opportunities in a fight. I really try to have multiple weapon 'zones of influence'. Short range, long range and indirect (I always try to carry a LRM or two). If I'm ducking behind cover, my direct fire weapons aren't useful, so being able to toss a few LRMs to help while I cooldown or drop off radar.

Always be prepared, having a one-trick-pony can be fun, but you may find yourself ineffective in a bad situation.

[Ritual Hammer]

I'm starting to think that maybe I just bought a cursed mech. The ONLY two out comes for all the games I've played with it are that I stay back and play safe while lighting up targets that pop up until half my team gets totally wiped out in short order and I then get over run an die... or option two is I play a little more aggressive, don't only stay behind cover that could block LRM fire and therefore die to a hail of LRMs kinda like those arrows from the movie 300.... that blotted out the sun.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Austiclyse, on 25 February 2016 - 12:12 AM, said:

I'm starting to think that maybe I just bought a cursed mech. The ONLY two out comes for all the games I've played with it are that I stay back and play safe while lighting up targets that pop up until half my team gets totally wiped out in short order and I then get over run an die... or option two is I play a little more aggressive, don't only stay behind cover that could block LRM fire and therefore die to a hail of LRMs kinda like those arrows from the movie 300.... that blotted out the sun.

Then fight in shade dude
I.e. fight close to solid cover, readily available on most maps. Polar Highlands have almost none, but there it isn't that hard to keep at ~900 meters from the enemy with AC2s and simply backpedal outside of their range (if anybody comes and lights you up that is, sensors can't lock on to you on that distance).

Remember 1 most basic rule of pug teamplay - the slower you are, the closer you should be to your teammates. Ideally, getting back to the bulk of your team/at least 3 friendly mechs should never take longer than about 20 seconds - you often need to be back ASAP to reinforce a push or to get help.

Helping from the distance may seem useful, but it has one distinct disadvantage - you're not reinforcing the front line with your armor, you don't share damage where it is most needed. More often than not, if a team's front line collapses, the game is lost, and a heavy out back is a lot of armor less on the front line. This is why I try to avoid building long-range oriented heavies and assaults for quick play. In group play (when your group is small) and in CW they can do wonders, but in QP I actually notice that sitting in a heavy or assaults out back makes me loose more games, no matter my individual score.

My advice - 1st make sure how much lrms does the enemy group have and adapt to this fact. 2nd Use that ac2 range to your advantage while the distance between both teams is large, but if the front lines get close, don't hesitate to close in and share armor with your teammates. You don't have to stay IN the front all the time, but don't hide completely in the back (alternatively, in a peekaboo fight, always change your targets to those who start peeking, before they shoot - your barrrage will make their aim worse and save your team some HP).

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 25 February 2016 - 12:34 AM.

[Sheriff Cinco]

I run that loadout on a rifleman and jaeger and a similar 2xac2 setup on a blackjack. I find the biggest advantage is keeping the enemy suppressed under cover. As soon as an enemy plays peekaboo you have to nail them. They get walloped with cockpit shake and dive for cover again. While they are shaking return fire at range is dificult and that negates your facetime problem. Sometimes it feels like wack-a-mole. I split arms between mouse buttons and alternate fire(LRLRLR). It spreads the damage more but spooks people better. I can't count the times I have forced a Direwolf back into cover without him returning fire on my BLACKJACK! (only 2 AC2)
Good luck!

[Soldier91]

I tried out AC2's on my jaegers while I still had them. Tonnage wise for their ROF I don't notice a difference between them and AC5's personally and the 5's just hit harder so I usually go with one or two AC5's instead of twos. For 4 ac2's to compare to something like two AC5's You'd have to land ten shots to the 5's two shots with rate of fire and ballistics not being the easiest to aim I find AC5's are just better and weigh less and damage per second is higher if I'm doing more damage per shot and shooting less to do it in a comparable amount of time. If I want to run more than two AC 5's I just go with a single UAC5 since the rate of fire can be somewhat comparable or better and save weight 9tons vs 16 so that's like 7 extra tons I could use on a backup weapon if the UAC5 jams that's enough for a large pulse laser or a PPC. AC2 from when I get hit with them don't make my mechs shake as much as a lot of other ballistics and missiles, I noticed against other people I don't have to torso twist as much and can face tank stuff a lot easier if I have a lot of weapons that cause shake to happen chain firing.

[rolly]

Kudos for running direct- fire support.

I would personally keep running direct-fire support. Its an under played role and can really suppress an enemy team. That being said its highly dependent on teamwork which you will likely get zero support. Which in a way would actually help you train to survive in CW and be more self reliant. If all else your cartography and tactical view will be stronger. Especially when you know your team is about to fail and you plug the gap with suppressing fire, or run to the herd because you know you're about to get jumped.

CW is a whole different kettle of fish anyhow. Pugging as a direct-fire support is an exercise in self flagellation. But I'd still do it anyhow.

Btw - if you haven't already, the Fire CTRL macro is wonderful with the quad AC/2

Edited by rolly, 02 March 2016 - 09:26 AM.

[S_T_R_A_N_G_E]

I've played a lot of direct fire support and I know it can be frustrating. Try following these guidelines that may help.

1. Try to always stay near, but behind larger mechs, about 150m is good.
2. Never be at the front of the mech group
3. If the mech group is stable, deny a small area, this means exposing yourself to a small area of the map and shooting anything that comes around a corner or over a ridge. Stay put, take some damage and keep the enemy heads down. If you get charged, fall back and regroup behind heavier mechs. Make sure the area of your mech you are exposing is only from what you are facing.
4. DO NOT act like a sniper... you cannot be a sniper as direct fire support. Your job is to provide a high level of fire/ damage onto a mech that is threatening a larger ally.
5. Don't chase lights.
6. Always follow your favored assault mech/s. Do not let them go alone.

[LordMelvin]

I love running 4+ AC/2s on chainfire. You can keep up a blistering hail of fire that will panic most players and is capable of ripping off crit locations. It does require a lot of face time, so I'll usually run groups of two until I get an opportunity to BRRRRRRT something to pieces.

I also feel less bad about slinging a ton of AC/2 ammo into the dirt to keep an enemy's head down than I do about AC/5 ammo.

[InspectorG]

Direct fire is the only fire in MWO. Basically you have the right idea.

AC2s only work vs noobs. You want dual Gauss/Gaussvomit on that jager. Dont be a 'sniper' either. in Puglandia, move with the ball, you sit alone some AC/FS/Jenner will hunt you.
AC2s do lots of damage...but over too much facetime. A Meta-Dire needs @ 2 seconds to do 70-80 damage to one component if the pilot can aim.
Some teams can get Ac2s to work in CW, but that is a team effort i hear.


So, branch out a bit-loadout wise and move with the group. You should gradually get better and gain the privilege of carrying in Solo.

[Repasy Cooper]

Honestly, that doesn't sound like a bad plan at all. In a group with a plan you could definitely get someone to watch your back, and having that extra long range harassment during a brawl can be just enough to tip the battle in your favour. As far as pugging goes though, the gauss build may do you better. When I drop solo I make sure I have the weaponry to watch my own hide, as you've found out the hard way teamplay in puglandia is uncommon. It's usually more of a mad rush for most kills, you get players who would rather trip over eachother chase after the same crippled light than come to the rescue of their support line and ensure team victory. kill-death ratio is more important to them.

Edited by Repasy, 08 March 2016 - 06:02 PM.

[L1f3H4ck]

Don't underestimate the power of suppressive fire. People rarely just walk out on an AC/2 boat, they keep their heads down. It's not just panic. Regardless of their alpha, they can't afford to take the constant dps, especially if they're outranged... vs. AC/2s. Try covering your teammates advances this way.

[SmoothCriminal]

For suppression, 2 AC2s work just as well as 4 - so I would drop two and fit some damage dealing lasers (ERLLs, LLs or if you have the tonnage LPLs). So when you provide ac2 cover fire you're also bringing a bit of damage as well.

[L1f3H4ck]

Dunno bout just 2 AC/2s, you need a bit of bite to back up that bark and vomit doesn't scare people behind cover, even if they do hear the faint hum. Ups your alpha ofc. Well OP, since you're playing Jagers, another option is to mix direct and indirect fire. With 2 AC/2s and 4 LRM5 on a JM6-A, you can keep those cockpits shaking, with or without line of sight.

[jss78]

I like quad-AC/2 Jagers in CW, where long-range fighting is common (including at ranges of close to 1km where AC/2 really shine as your damage remains at near maximum but return fire becomes a smaller problem). In CW you also get organised firing lines much more often, and that gives the Jager the natural place to be.

I play that mech much less in Solo queue, because it's just too situational. Most maps favour short range and lights sneak around much more, and you're just too vulnerable.

For Solo queue I prefer a super stock BJ-1 with 2*AC/2 and 4*ML. The better mobility and the better burst damage with the ML's thrown in make it more versatile in pugging.

Edited by jss78, 11 March 2016 - 04:43 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

The key with ac2 and ac5 is to be close enough to hit directly on a single component or at least one area of the mech. You don't want to be so far that you are only doing suppression fire.

Try to be the perpetual 2nd mech. Eg, Atlas charges in, you are the guy standing right next to him and slightly behind. He takes the first hit while you both dish it out. As he exhausts his heat or alpha and start to turn away you step in with dakka to cover the retreat. Rinse, repeat.

Doing this ive found that dakka jagers are quite survivable.

Eg: 1:45 in this game:

https://youtu.be/GbaJfE6TH3Y

2nd piece of advice - as shown later on in this video, another good way to make sure you dont take a lot of damage is to make sure that the first thing the enemy sees about your mech is your dakka hitting them in the face. Not being able to see and getting constantly hammered by dakka unsurprisingly reduces the effectiveness of return fire substantially.

To achieve this you need to learn to slice the pie, work the map like a SWAT guy clearing a room, and if you are the first, go no faster than you can aim and get in the first shot.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 11 March 2016 - 05:43 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Consider taking two AC10. They weigh the same as four AC2 and have similar damage output and better concentration.

Putting damage into a single location, as opposed to spreading it all over a mech, is key in this game. AC2 spread damage everywhere.

Edited by Rouken Vordermark, 11 March 2016 - 05:54 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

the problem with any form of "support fire" in this game, is that you're leaving a lot to chance, i.e. whether your team is competent. all the suppression fire in the world won't mean anything if your team is doing jack damage.

Triple AC5s or Triple UAC5s put out a lot more damage upfront and still achieves suppression effect.

also, you really shouldn't be brawling in a Jager

[patoman]

While lasers are better in allot of ways, for the biggest mechs that can fit everything you almost need to fit something else that dish out extra damage and not be another heat drain which acs pretty good for. So could do mix. Also if you like the idea of a burst damage go ultra, shoot everything as fast as possiable and when something jams go into cover, or if you urgently need to deal damage double tap.

If it works in game then it works, say if you in optimum or falloff and don't take too much damage back, and able to dish out enough then it works.

I would go against the idea of olny considering fewer ac 10's if you can do 2's for the same dps (compare one with the other in multiple matches). Less weapons to lose insnt a good thing, think about it, say if you got one in each arm one in each torso, and you lose one arm no big deal, or even two, also if you have ammo in the torso you can actualy do the same amount of damage in a match just slower. But if you have a few big guns lose it or ammo and that's it.

Also, range is allways good damage mitigation, think about it, if you a thousand away even large lasers deal reduced damage, anything less ranged can't touch you.

Its like a urban mech or atlas and one ac20, lose it or the ammo and its screwed, lose gun and can't use remaining ammo, lose ammo and can't use gun. If in any case had redundant weapons and ammo a fallback exists.

Edited by patoman, 12 March 2016 - 01:19 PM.