306 replies to this topic

[DovisKhan]

Repasy, on 22 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

It takes discipline. That's all, not really rocket science.



Maybe if the MLX runs straight at you or does the typical nascar circle around one enemy assault. The MLX takes discipline, you have to choose your battles wisely. It's not a frontman, it's the janitor that cleans up the mess left in the wake of a Dire Wolf and the like. Your laser config works too, it's just playing a different style from the stock loadout.

The other two examples were weak. Switching the orientation of two weapons on a mech is up to personal taste and does not affect the damage/heat output in the slightest.

While personal taste does play a role, weapon placement does make a build objectively better.


Here's a 3 common situations:


1) Team push, with weapons on both arms you either fire separately or risk painting you buddies back red with that laser

2) Peek a boom - you are forced either to do half you damage or expose all torso - worse case is that you can get dropped instantly, because you exposed your fulll torso, while with weapons in 1 arm you'd lose a single side torso

3) Brawl - losing 1 side torso cuts your damage in half


^ In all cases the stock build is clearly inferior and drastically at that.

Widowmaker1981, on 22 February 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

Why are you going on about stock mechs? Who cares? All stock mechs in this game are terrible, largely because they were designed for a different game where things like different weapon firing profiles and individual weapon locations didnt matter at all, the heat system was FAR less punishing (because rates of fire were much lower), ammo required was much lower (again, due to rates of fire), etc.

If you don't want your face kicked in, customise your mech. I don't see what thats got to do with Clan/IS balance.

Because that guy made his argument about stocks


His claim - IS and Clan is balanced, because him playing stock clan mechs results in even matches


My claim - he is having even matches even with gimped stock builds, that in itself is proof that clan tech is better


The rest were examples from his and from my side

[Wolfways]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

IS need a lot of tweaking before it's remotely on par with Clans, take for example http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=13&l=stock

^65 ton mech, with 2 lrm15 and 720 ammo, best case scenario you'd get ~300 dmg in that, because you don't ever have 100% lrm accuracy against moving targets.

And that's far from the only crappy stock IS mech, most of them are running at half capacity when out of the box


Find me a clan mech that bad at 65 tons, heck, you'd have to try hard to find one that bad at half the tonnage, even the ebj prime is not that bad

I wouldn't use an LRM boat as an example that they are crap...because they are.
As people say that MDD is the clan equivalent of the CPLT how exactly is it better? Limited ammo, overheats when firing lasers. Seems just like the CPLT to me.

The game is made for IS mechs that are using DHS. Pgi obviously never thought about how it would affect clan mechs in the future.
IS mechs with SHS run hot > Make a heat system where they run well with DHS > Clan mechs come with DHS as standard and weapons that can be (mostly) supported by those DHS > so in MWO clan mechs run extremely hot and have to remove/reduce weapons.

Repasy, on 22 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

It takes discipline. That's all, not really rocket science.

So you just....basically rarely fire.

Edited by Wolfways, 22 February 2016 - 04:26 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

While personal taste does play a role, weapon placement does make a build objectively better.


Here's a 3 common situations:


1) Team push, with weapons on both arms you either fire separately or risk painting you buddies back red with that laser

2) Peek a boom - you are forced either to do half you damage or expose all torso - worse case is that you can get dropped instantly, because you exposed your fulll torso, while with weapons in 1 arm you'd lose a single side torso

3) Brawl - losing 1 side torso cuts your damage in half

Interjecting here because I love fighting asymmetrical builds, which is what you seem to be advocating. A little secret for ya. Eventually, that asym configuration is going to need to look at you to shoot at you. When it does, you only need to focus one component to take that mech out of the fight. It's easy mode to strip them, and something I do for fun.

The benefits of a symmetrical build are that you have both integrated redundancy should a side torso get sheared off by a good shot and you are free to armor roll with the entire mech and not just one specific side. This, alone, drastically increases the total amount of damage you can allow yourself to take before being rendered INOP. You can also freely break cover from the left or right and not be unusually limited in what you can do, which makes your movements less predictable to the enemy.

That isn't to say asyms don't have advantages. They do. They tend to have easier and tighter convergence, can corner peek from exactly one direction easily (but are terrible from the other direction), and can freely lose half a mech so shave extra tonnage off that sacrificial side. But don't go ahead and spin symmetrical builds as intrinsically bad. Asymmetrical builds are high risk configurations to hopefully capitalize on a deadside shield. Against a patient, aware enemy, however, it's easy pickings.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 22 February 2016 - 04:34 AM.

[Wolfways]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 22 February 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Wolf, if you think installing DHS and Endo on most IS mechs does it and you can call it a day.... you might want to re-think your strategy

I don't need to. I've been doing it for 5 years.
Currently doing really badly in Ravens though. They are kinda bad, not nearly as OP as other lights.

[Captian Dralisz]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

^ that one AC carried the whole team, all the rest aside from a few were crap players, while on IS side everyone was pretty much of even level, says a lot when one guy in a light mech can **** the whole IS team, mostly about his damn good skill, but the mech played a part as well

So bad I didn't record it, but made screenshots from the summary also. I've dealt the most dmg on all the 10 kills , I think it was also lucky that the enemy didn't focus fire me while I were on the open. 4-5 enemies was still alive while the rest of my team were dead already

I had 5x CSPL on the cheeta, 6dmg for only 3 heat and 2sec cd is the best stuff you can have for brawling and sneakattack.
So bad the IS SPL is only dealing 4 dmg 50% less than the clan version... that is a lot I think.

[DovisKhan]

Wolfways, on 22 February 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

I wouldn't use an LRM boat as an example that they are crap...because they are.
As people say that MDD is the clan equivalent of the CPLT how exactly is it better? Limited ammo, overheats when firing lasers. Seems just like the CPLT to me.

The game is made for IS mechs that are using DHS. Pgi obviously never thought about how it would affect clan mechs in the future.
IS mechs with SHS run hot > Make a heat system where they run well with DHS > Clan mechs come with DHS as standard and weapons that can be (mostly) supported by those DHS > so in MWO clan mechs run extremely hot and have to remove/reduce weapons.


So you just....basically rarely fire.

That is the point, Clans can choose to run either too hot but carry 2x the weapons or run completely heat efficient if carrying the same armament as IS

^Clans can choose in which way they are better



I happen to own both catapult and mad dog, heh, there is not a snowballs chance in hell a stock catapult A1 would beat any mdd modification, it literally doesn't have enough ammo to drop an mdd, so even if the mdd ust ran around while the catapult unloaded all it has, it would survive and then could humiliate it by scoring with a single small laser or whatever


On a side note - lrms are not bad at all, I don't get this reputation, my cbill farmer is a quad lrm15 king crab, consistent 800+ damage pretty much every game (even when losing) and lots of component destructions/kill most damage dealt

Edited by DovisKhan, 22 February 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Metus regem, on 21 February 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

"Knowing is half the battle"

- G.I. Joe


"Knowledge is power."

- Librarian WH40K.

Knowledge is HERESY! Exterminatus!!!

- Any WH40K Inquisitor.

[DovisKhan]

Captian Dralisz, on 22 February 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

So bad I didn't record it, but made screenshots from the summary also. I've dealt the most dmg on all the 10 kills , I think it was also lucky that the enemy didn't focus fire me while I were on the open. 4-5 enemies was still alive while the rest of my team were dead already

I had 5x CSPL on the cheeta, 6dmg for only 3 heat and 2sec cd is the best stuff you can have for brawling and sneakattack.
So bad the IS SPL is only dealing 4 dmg 50% less than the clan version... that is a lot I think.

Yeah, I'd want to see such pwnage , wish there was an inbuilt replay saver like in some mobas


Worst part of IS spl is the 110 range, you pretty much need to climb up their behind to do any damage, that's why pretty much no is light ever carries them

[Wolfways]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

That is the point, Clans can choose to run either too hot but carry 2x the weapons or run completely heat efficient if carrying the same armament as IS

^Clans can choose in which way they are better

But there isn't a choice if those choices are either be heat efficient or don't fire.

Quote

I happen to own both catapult and mad dog, heh, there is not a snowballs chance in hell a stock catapult A1 would beat any mdd modification, it literally doesn't have enough ammo to drop an mdd, so even if the mdd ust ran around while the catapult unloaded all it has, it would survive and then could humiliate it by scoring with a single small laser or whatever

Umm...MDD is incredibly fragile. The sides fall off practically as soon as the mech gets hit.

Quote

On a side note - lrms are not bad at all, I don't get this reputation, my cbill farmer is a quad lrm15 king crab, consistent 800+ damage pretty much every game (even when losing) and lots of component destructions/kill most damage dealt

I do the same in my "stock weapons" JM6-S. It's just so stupidly easy that for years I've been wondering why it hasn't been nerfed (although my wife will kill me for saying that on the forums as it has been her favourite mech ever since I showed her the build )

[Captian Dralisz]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

Yeah, I'd want to see such pwnage , wish there was an inbuilt replay saver like in some mobas


Worst part of IS spl is the 110 range, you pretty much need to climb up their behind to do any damage, that's why pretty much no is light ever carries them

Yeah replay would be cool , if I'm using IS mech that is only AC or LRM, LRM is good because AMS can't shot them off that easily as its shooting down the CLRM, AC single bullet also much better than the clan version, Mauler 2xAC5 and 2xAC10 eating faces pretty fast within 600m.

Only the jenner is fine and the ecm raven, the rest IS lights are useless I think. Panther looks cool so bad its a pile of crap

[DovisKhan]

Captian Dralisz, on 22 February 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Yeah replay would be cool , if I'm using IS mech that is only AC or LRM, LRM is good because AMS can't shot them off that easily as its shooting down the CLRM, AC single bullet also much better than the clan version, Mauler 2xAC5 and 2xAC10 eating faces pretty fast within 600m.

Only the jenner is fine and the ecm raven, the rest IS lights are useless I think. Panther looks cool so bad its a pile of crap

Yeah i'm a bllistic fan as well

For IS:

Love the Marauder and King Crab, real nice ballistic boats, want Mauler as well, but that's some time later when I master the crabs

Yeah IS lights are a huge disappointment after playing a clan light, only 2 I'm playing are the locusts, just cause my drop deck has 20 tons left over, so it's a filler


Though I'm surprised by Locust-1V, it's 50% cooldown and duration reduction means you can have a non stop erll beam, 9 dps at long range, very, very nice for a 20 tonner

Wolfways, on 22 February 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

But there isn't a choice if those choices are either be heat efficient or don't fire.




Umm...MDD is incredibly fragile. The sides fall off practically as soon as the mech gets hit.



I do the same in my "stock weapons" JM6-S. It's just so stupidly easy that for years I've been wondering why it hasn't been nerfed (although my wife will kill me for saying that on the forums as it has been her favourite mech ever since I showed her the build )

Hehe nice, yeah Jaegers are nice, one of the heavies i'm planning on getting after mastering the ones i currently have

[Thorqemada]

As IS-Mechwarrior only tryxing now and then a Clanmech to stay in touch with their tech my latest expereience is a Stormcrow.
3x ERML, 6xERSPL, 3xLRM5, TC1, BAP, 17DHS or 16DHS+AMS (and you can very easy swap some ML for some SPL and Vice Versa for more range or bigger heat efficiency).

Unbasiced and w/o Modules this Stormcrow was in the same streak of Matches 3 times as successfull as my mastered and moduled Shadow Hawk 2H, CN9-AH or HBK.4G.

That the majority of Clan-Weapons is placed in the Arms only makes it more deadly bcs it greatly increases the tracking capability of Targets and accuracy, the Clan-XL makes it as hard to kill as an IS Mech with much heavier STD-Engine - even with 1 side lost its still a dangerous opponent, with SPL it runs cool as Ice able to permanently fire for an extended period of time and with ERML it has the equivalent of IS-LL but can boat them much easier with way more DHS.
Clan-Lurms are an afterthought for their low weight and increase your tactical Options.
SPL make Clan Mechs to become effective Light Killers if you dont want use Clan Streaks that can be as every Clan Missile in such absurd amounts boated that no IS Mech ever can hope to win a Missile Duel.

I realy dont understand what Clanners want else...for everything the IS has good the Clan has something better and Clan-UAcs outperform IS-ACs but the heavier IS UAC5.

How ******* easy want some Clanners had their Ducks in a Barrel hunting to have???

Edited by Thorqemada, 22 February 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Lugh]

Chados, on 21 February 2016 - 06:11 AM, said:

Don't forget the advanced zoom boosts the IS doesn't get, LOL. And how many IS heavy mechs are in tier 1 per Metamechs? Zero. It's HBR, TBR, EBJ. How many assaults? Zero. Cue the Dire Wolf. I'm just saying.

Have you dropped in a Direwolf recently? They are a liability on the battlefield anymore.

I'd rather pilot any other assault than them at the moment.

[Jenovah]

Wow... Just wow... I mean, really, I have played IS when "clans were OP," and Clans when "IS OP." Adapt to the game, stop the damn crying. Part of the reason that Clan is pushing out on the map, by the way, is 1)Units. 2)Players returning after being absent for other games that recently released- I.E. Population returning. I know in my organization there was a deep cut in activity until just before the patch due to this.

I do know that when a patch comes out, before anyone can actually build and assess a mech's changes, the salts come out. Before any real matches can be played, the forum posts are up.

Stop embarrassing yourselves.

For those who don't own clan mechs. Your arguments are baseless as you have no idea how they operate "off paper."

For those of us who do, you have to realize we have years fighting in IS mechs, and we understand exactly how they work, what their thresholds are as well as can damn near figure out their loadout/wep locations without the ragdoll by seeing an IS mech fire or based on perceived movement speed- this makes knowing where to hit it much easier. Know your enemy.

[Apocryph0n]

The Clans aren't OP. The problem isn't the Clanners 'Mech choice, the problem is yours. There's plenty of IS Mechs that outperform Clans, even at Long Range.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Its all a result of you meta ****** wanting the best of every world on every mech.....so every patch PGI makes one side or the other the FOTM for a bit, then has to buff the other side then nerf the competition, until its the turn of the other faction to be FOTM for a bit.

PGI doesnt really have a clue the direction they want this game to go, I think they just like to spend 8 hours a day playing around in a spread sheet changing numbers. 4 guys sit around a poker table, with, beer, pretzels and porn in the background rolling dice, shooting the ****, half drunk and randomly adjusting numbers....

[Rushin Roulette]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 February 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

I mean hell, people are complaining that a 7 TON 7 SLOT targeting computer is powerful, when many IS mechs get well beyond those level of buffs for free from quirks.

I seem to be blind... which mech has the advanced zoom quirk (and the module does not count, as that is neither free nor mech/IS specific). +35% projectile speed is probable on some quirked IS mech... but I cant remember which one and if any are quite up to 35%.
Finally, the point which makes the clan TC so damn OP is the crit chance increase for every single weapon installed. IS mechs never had increased crit chances on any weapons, and if there would haev been, then they would have been on single weapons systems on single mech chassies.

Quote

• Targeting Computer MK VII[indent]
• Zoom Level 1 Boost increased to 40% (from 22.5)
• Zoom Level 2 Boost increased to 47% (from 30)
• Beam Range Boost increased to 10% (from 7.5)
• Projectile Speed Boost increased to 35% (from 15)
• Critical Chance 1 Boost increased to 8% (from 7.44)
• Critical Chance 2 Boost increased to 4.5% (from 4.17)
• Critical Chance 3 Boost increased to 1% (from 0.89)

Remove the crit chance possibilities from all TC and keep the longer range/better zoom. The problem with the current CT is that as soon as a mech has lost its armour, the internals just explode (Sometimes faster than the display of Critical damage can appear on the screen (and deffinitely faster than bitchin Betty can announce the fact).

The main problem however is PGIs inherent inability to comprehend what balance is. Before the patch, the IS were slightly ahead in terms of power. What was needed was a toning down of some quirks on the IS side or a buff of the clan side. What PGI then did in their infinite "wisdom" was simultaneously nerf the IS (toning down quirks) and Buff the Clan (Buff TC, remove negative quirks, give new buffs).

Had they done only one of the changes (Nerf IS, Buff Clan or Buff TC), the game would have been closer to balancing. If that one change was not enough, then they should have re-evaluated the situation again before making the next tweak... but this way? Utter tripe. [/indent]

[Jenovah]

Rushin Roulette, on 22 February 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

I seem to be blind... which mech has the advanced zoom quirk (and the module does not count, as that is neither free nor mech/IS specific). +35% projectile speed is probable on some quirked IS mech... but I cant remember which one and if any are quite up to 35%.
Finally, the point which makes the clan TC so damn OP is the crit chance increase for every single weapon installed. IS mechs never had increased crit chances on any weapons, and if there would haev been, then they would have been on single weapons systems on single mech chassies.


Remove the crit chance possibilities from all TC and keep the longer range/better zoom. The problem with the current CT is that as soon as a mech has lost its armour, the internals just explode (Sometimes faster than the display of Critical damage can appear on the screen (and deffinitely faster than bitchin Betty can announce the fact).

The main problem however is PGIs inherent inability to comprehend what balance is. Before the patch, the IS were slightly ahead in terms of power. What was needed was a toning down of some quirks on the IS side or a buff of the clan side. What PGI then did in their infinite "wisdom" was simultaneously nerf the IS (toning down quirks) and Buff the Clan (Buff TC, remove negative quirks, give new buffs).

Had they done only one of the changes (Nerf IS, Buff Clan or Buff TC), the game would have been closer to balancing. If that one change was not enough, then they should have re-evaluated the situation again before making the next tweak... but this way? Utter tripe. [/indent]

Everyone likes to cite the MarkVII TC... I personally do not know anyone who uses a Mark VII TC @ 7 tons and 7 slots. That space is usually for my heatsinks, personally. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see a CW/Comp viable build that equips it.

[Apocryph0n]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

Its all a result of you meta ****** wanting the best of every world on every mech.....so every patch PGI makes one side or the other the FOTM for a bit, then has to buff the other side then nerf the competition, until its the turn of the other faction to be FOTM for a bit.

You sound mad. Actually IF there was balance, there would be no meta and pretty much every competetive player would prefer it that way. Congrats for not understanding how Balance works.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

if there would be balance, there would be no laser vomit
and units would not change factions whenever one faction was "fixed" so often