306 replies to this topic

[Lucian Nostra]

I came to this thread expecting to see some classic Johnny z whining, and I got more than expected. Top snek.

Haven't touched a clan mech since marauder hit, having no issues with clans

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 21 February 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Yep. That as much as anything else proves my point.

Hardly, they are constantly swapping back and forth, screwing up the whole point of CW....

If anything, what we see is newer players go IS for the perceived lower inital investment of starting IS, and to a degree it's true. The ability to swap engines between mechs is a huge advantage. How ever back to my point, I see just as many moons on both sides, but having played Clan for over a year, to the point of exclusion of any other mechs, when I swapped to IS, I've been able to exploit the limitations of Clan mechs rather easily, I'm that guy that will charge a Timber Wolf in a CN9-YLW, and stand a decent chance at winning.

[ShinobiHunter]

Metus regem, on 21 February 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Hardly, they are constantly swapping back and forth, screwing up the whole point of CW....

If anything, what we see is newer players go IS for the perceived lower inital investment of starting IS, and to a degree it's true. The ability to swap engines between mechs is a huge advantage. How ever back to my point, I see just as many moons on both sides, but having played Clan for over a year, to the point of exclusion of any other mechs, when I swapped to IS, I've been able to exploit the limitations of Clan mechs rather easily, I'm that guy that will charge a Timber Wolf in a CN9-YLW, and stand a decent chance at winning.

It's much easier to understand the other mechs weaknesses once you've played them for awhile.

[Chados]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 February 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

And in both cases, the Clans only won by, what, 10-15%? When they had the advantage?

Wait a tick. Wasn't Tuk 2 calibrated to give the *IS* the advantage by letting IS play defense?

[Lightfoot]

MechWarrior is more of a sissors-paper-stone balance. Long range with 7 ton targeting computers are vulnerable to short range. Don't expect to beat a heavier mech head-on. The mechs are reasonably balanced with stand-outs and junk-piles on each faction.

What is not balanced is the CW gametype because it pits players against a map that is not balanced. Meanwhile all the MechWarrior tactical weapons are so heavily nerfed they can't fulfill their tactical roles and that makes lasers king because they work at any range. The weapons that normally beat lasers at long range are not very good in MWO, Gauss Rifles, ERPPCs, and LRMs. We had all the weapons working in April of 2013, but all the noobs couldn't handle the diversity of the tactics available too them and so demanded nerf after nerf until all the weapons were vanilla and tactically dead.

This is why if the mechs are too weak for 2xGauss or LRM40 or 3xERPPCs you make the mechs tougher and keep the weapons tactically effective. That way Inner Sphere has weapons to counter Clan tech like normally firing Gauss Rifles, DHS 2.0, LRMs that do not need to be boated to be effective. If this had been done CW would be balanced.

[Johnny Z]

Chados, on 21 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Wait a tick. Wasn't Tuk 2 calibrated to give the *IS* the advantage by letting IS play defense?

Correct but don't ruin it for them.

[Metus regem]

ShinobiHunter, on 21 February 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

It's much easier to understand the other mechs weaknesses once you've played them for awhile.

"Knowing is half the battle"

- G.I. Joe


"Knowledge is power."

- Librarian WH40K.

[Pariah Devalis]

Chados, on 21 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Wait a tick. Wasn't Tuk 2 calibrated to give the *IS* the advantage by letting IS play defense?

The planet STARTED as IS held. As a result, the IS needed to defend the planet to win. All the Clans had to do was to capture ground. Given any attacker on any planet has the advantage via game modes you get given to retain a %, it would shift the favor to the Clans on Tukayyid.

Figure: Defender needs to hold the enemy back on defense or they lose the %. If they lose, now they need to counter attack to try and get that % back. If they WIN the initial defense OR the counter attack, it isn't like the % of held zones increases. At best it stays the same. Meanwhile, an attacker win will shift the captured percentage. Even if it is then lost on the counterattack phase.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 February 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Metus regem, on 21 February 2016 - 09:00 AM, said:

Hardly, they are constantly swapping back and forth, screwing up the whole point of CW....

If anything, what we see is newer players go IS for the perceived lower inital investment of starting IS, and to a degree it's true. The ability to swap engines between mechs is a huge advantage. How ever back to my point, I see just as many moons on both sides, but having played Clan for over a year, to the point of exclusion of any other mechs, when I swapped to IS, I've been able to exploit the limitations of Clan mechs rather easily, I'm that guy that will charge a Timber Wolf in a CN9-YLW, and stand a decent chance at winning.

Your example of a Centurian vrs a Timberwolf is ok. I am using examples where the Inner Sphere stands no chance what so ever. To make a point.

There are no situations I am aware that the Inner Sphere has such assured wins.

Not to mention the Timber Wolf vrs Centurian is far from a fair fight. But your right there is a chance the Centurian can win.

Edited by Johnny Z, 21 February 2016 - 09:12 AM.

[Xavori]

150m max range difference matters quite a bit on maps like Boreal, Hellbore, etc. It's entirely possible for clans to kill 1 or 2 mechs with focused sniper fire before the IS can mount any counter fire. And at that point, the games snowball effect kicks in and it gets totally out of hand.

(on Boreal, it can turn into a 48-0 stomp pretty easily if after wasting the first wave of IS mech, the clanners push to 1000-1200m from the dropships and just snipe the incoming reinforcements before they even get moving...that map needs better attacker dropship area design)

Now sure, against an uncoordinated newbie pug, the clans might not get that focused sniper fire. But against good units, ya, game over before it ever started. I'd also like to point out that in the brawler-y maps, the IS can theoretically post an advantage, but given how much harder it is to coordinate fire in brawler fighting, it's not going to happen in PUGs, and it's part of what makes units like KCOM so effective (ie. they coordinate very well in brawls)

p.s. Unnerf the gauss rifle and you can fix some of this because clan comps don't buff ballistic range

Edited by Xavori, 21 February 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Johnny Z, on 21 February 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Your example of a Centurian vrs a Timberwolf is ok. I am using examples where the Inner Sphere stands no chance what so ever. To make a point.

There are no situations I am aware that the Inner Sphere has such assured wins.

Off the top of my head? IS MPLas mech vs Clan MPLas mech in brawling range of equal tonnage (say, TDR vs HBR). IS Mech is almost assuredly going to win due to a combination of the significantly lower heat and burn time. A lot more time to armor roll between shots for the IS platform. Toss on structure quirks which somewhat (but not completely) blunt the raw damage advantage the Clan mech has.

Granted, to be fair, there's a range gap there, but if you know the maps well enough then there are usually "safe" approaches to get into spitting distance on most of them.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 February 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Metus regem]

Johnny Z, on 21 February 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Your example of a Centurian vrs a Timberwolf is ok. I am using examples where the Inner Sphere stands no chance what so ever. To make a point.

There are no situations I am aware that the Inner Sphere has such assured wins.

The fact that I am confident enough to use a Mech 25t lighter with heavier equipment that is shorter ranged than the much larger and tougher apex Clan Mech, means that I am more assured of my skill in knowing my target's limitation and being confident that I can capitalize on that weakness. The amount of Timber Wolves I've put down with headshots from my AC/20 because I pusg them to overheat on Frozen City is amazing... Upto 21 so far, and I don't play much.... Hell I pounded down a meta Dire Wolf last night with my super stock WHM-6R in CW last night....

[Johnny Z]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 February 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Off the top of my head? IS MPLas mech vs Clan MPLas mech in brawling range of equal tonnage (say, TDR vs HBR). IS Mech is almost assuredly going to win due to a combination of the significantly lower heat and burn time. A lot more time to armor roll between shots for the IS platform. Toss on structure quirks which somewhat (but not completely) blunt the raw damage advantage the Clan mech has.

Granted, to be fair, there's a range gap there, but if you know the maps well enough then there are usually "safe" approaches to get into spitting distance on most of them.

Theres a range and speed gap there unless the tdr is using an xl in which he has no chance of winning. So in theory that HBR could kite that TDR without taking any damage at all and win.

Realisticly its a close fight. far from an assured Inner Sphere win though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 21 February 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Johnny Z, on 21 February 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Theres a range and speed gap there unless the tdr is using an xl in which he has no chance of winning. So in theory that HBR could kite that TDR without taking any damage at all and win.

Situationally dependant. Take VB, for example. If you round a corner on the enemy and come face to face with this sort of situation, there isn't enough room or time to hightail it out of there to exploit any sort of range advantage. You're better off just trying your best to disable or destroy the TDR instead of running away in an HBR. River City? Once the brawlfight starts, you're stuck in it. The situation should be fairly clear in Mining Collective as it is a gigantic brawl pit.

Forest Colony? Ya, you have some room to move, but if they time their push on you right then you're still stuck with that pro-con issue of "do I try and run away, giving him free shots at me which can kill me quickly enough, or do I stand my ground and try and fight?" Odds are better for the Clan pilot to fight, most of the time, even knowing the enemy has the advantage in that particular range bracket.

Now, take Alpine or Polar Highlands, and it's, of course, another story. A lot of outs and a lot of long sight lines to play into the range advantage.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 February 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Pjwned]

Blame the **** maps in CW more than clans.

[VorpalAnvil]

oldradagast, on 21 February 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

Sadly, there is still a percentage of people who feel the Clans should flat-out wreck those "stupid IS players." Some of this may be based on people thinking that paying money for Clans means they should have easy victories, while others lean on the crutch of Lore, where "Clans are way better!" while ignoring the rest of Lore, such as Clans also being severely outnumbered in every engagement and following an odd honor code, neither of which are implemented in this game.

Personally, I'll never get it. Wanting to play Clans just to seal-club "stupid IS players" reminds me of the types who, when starting up a D&D game, just need to play a dragon, vampire, or some other dumb thing while everyone else is playing basic player character races. If they aren't given a free shot of unearned power over everyone else, they aren't happy since they can't wave their epeen around.



Don't forget then having people brag all over the forums about their "skillz" after using exploits to win, and how much the other players "suck" for not using exploits. As you said, most players don't want a fun game, or a challenge, or - god forbid - a mix of teamwork and skill. They just want to club seals, embiggen their epeen, and talk trash about it later.

Delusional much? My unit switched to IS last night (for not the first time) and going IS allows me to wreck "stupid IS players" in their own equipment to the tune of an average of 500 damage and a couple of kills more per game more. It's just the same bads with the same cheese and whine thread. Maybe spend less times here on the forums and actually play the game some and you might actually stop being terribad? But that would require you to simultaneously face reality about the balance of the game and improve your own personal skill, two things that you have repeatedly demonstrated you are wholly incapable of.

[Summon3r]

Zoid, on 21 February 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

With the +10% energy range quirk on many, many IS 'mechs, the base range for the ERLL is virtually identical (IS actually has a 2m advantage). You can boost the clan range another 10% for a whopping 7 tons and 7 critical slots, which puts the optimal range at 810 for IS and 888 for clan, with the range mod on both as well. You get a significantly lower burn time (again, with quirks) in exchange for a mere 78 meters of range, which is a trivial amount at that distance.

Balance among the good 'mechs is actually quite good now. Stalkers are still very powerful, but so are Timberwolves. We just don't have silly things like Blackjacks tanking more damage than an Atlas anymore.

And complaining about brawling vs clans with the superior IS heat efficiency, incredibly short burn time lasers, and ballistics is just funny.

this

the op's brawling part was especially funny

[Johnny Z]

VorpalAnvil, on 21 February 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Delusional much? My unit switched to IS last night (for not the first time) and going IS allows me to wreck "stupid IS players" in their own equipment to the tune of an average of 500 damage and a couple of kills more per game more. It's just the same bads with the same cheese and whine thread. Maybe spend less times here on the forums and actually play the game some and you might actually stop being terribad? But that would require you to simultaneously face reality about the balance of the game and improve your own personal skill, two things that you have repeatedly demonstrated you are wholly incapable of.

So your saying Inner Sphere has an advantage over Clan mechs at the moment?

[Tarl Cabot]

Karmen Baric, on 21 February 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

So now we starting to see Clan mechs with TC and ERLL on Boreal Vault, where i was getting damage a lot and didnt see any damage on same enemy mechs with my IS ERLL.
So this is level playing field where multiple Clan mechs can damage you and you cant get out door for fear of being killed and cant damage enemy with same (but IS) weapon.

On all other maps all you see is Timberwolves with SRM6 & lasers followed by some UAC mechs Streak Crows, SRM6 Dogs. Again with how fast Clan mechs move once these mechs are on you, your mech is dead. Apart from Atlas (you cant bring 3) to counter this, IS dont have any mech to fight against such a superior mech as the SRM6 jump capable Timberwolf. So again in close range in CW, the Clans always win, with 2 equal sides.

So i see this is what Clan players wanted, to win easy. You know what they say if you cant beat em because their mechs are better join em.

Lots of posts!!!

First, you are looking at this in the wrong way. On weapons Clans should have the range advantage, with all the gadgets added on both sides (TC, modules, quirks). But those ranges are not that great. PGI has even cut the max range for the ERML+lesser energy weapons.

IS goal will be to close that range with several mechs so they can all target one mech. With that said, PGI could always choose to close the IS-Clan range with specific weapon quirk (AGAIN) or add said function to another device (doubtful), forcing said players to use tonnage as they are doing with the Clanners. My bet though is specific weapon quirks, (chuckles) similar to what the IS had prior to the Dec 2015 quirk changes, changes that at time made to give mechs more... generic quirks instead of locking them into one build.

As for speed, for most of the current set of mechs used for CW they could go a little faster but that dang IS-XL engine is such a glass egg. In an environment set with PPD, bringing it in line with the C-XL but with a 30% heat/movement hit would be the route to go.

As for close range setups it looks like several are catching on, dumping their laser builds and making them into knife fighters on some of their mechs. For IS heavies that leaves the catapult then some medium mechs. But then it would not really matter if the IS side is semi-passive or not setup effectively, in both map placement AND mech usage. Haven't you had those games where 4 or so players brought their light/meds first (especially defense) then only bring out their last mechs which were heavies and assaults but almost everyone is already dead?

Don't forget, with the negative clan quirk removals, the addition of other quirks, primarily ballistics and missiles, players are going to check it out. Don't forget it is time for those large merc units get new contracts. Sorry that loyalists do not have a larger, more organized population, or after over a year PGI, has not done a better job of filling out the CW, it make it mean something more than a 3rd gaming mode that allows a player to drop with 4 mechs.

[sycocys]

Chados, on 21 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Wait a tick. Wasn't Tuk 2 calibrated to give the *IS* the advantage by letting IS play defense?

Defense is only "easier" if the attacker isn't strictly pushing for the objective wins. When that's the mission - attacking is far easier to accomplish for either side.