30 replies to this topic

[Xavori]

(This is a serious post which I rarely to never do. I promise I will not do this again for at least a month.)

tl;dr : There is more to MWO than solo kills
tl;dr pt 2 : ZOMG did the rifleman highlight how bad many pug players are (but of course not you)
tl;dr pt 3 : Also, solo queue is terribad for the current scoring system

This is my second leaderboard even since I'm one of those icky Steam players (My 2012 join date is when I first sorta followed the game, but never having heard of PGI, decided to wait and see...good move on my part as the game is way moar betterer than it was back then). The first leaderboard event I just went lulzy and played a Warhammer 7S lrm boat because all the vets kept telling me every CW match that LRM sucked and I sucked for using them and my mom sucked just cuz apparently. It made #13 on that leaderboard

(I'm so looking forward to the Archer leaderboard event. The sky will be blackened with non-stop lrms. I might very well consider hiring a triple AMS/ECM kit fox just to be my bodyguard.)

This time around I started with a much more rationale build using the tried and true large/medium pulse lasers because of course I did. Then I got bored with that and decided to play roflman as the ballistic boats they want to be (except 5d). I even took it to the extreme using dual AC20's with 56 rounds of ammo and that's it. (if I wanted to make another serious post, it'd be how PGI should just abandon lore on ballistics and balance them vs energy themselves as it's nonsensical that weapons that require ammo and have a max total damage weigh so much more than weapons with unlimited ammo) That meant that on my 3C and 3N I had a maximum of 1120 damage (barring crits) I could do per match, and that I could only do 40 points of damage per shot. Neither of those things are particularly conducive to doing well in this event, but I had a lot more fun than running yet another laser boat.

The thing is, I had lots and lots of matches where I had the most damage on my team. Heck, I hit over 800 damage (out of that 1120) on quite a few occasions. But then I'd calculate the score in my head and because I didn't get 5+ solo kills, my score was meh. And what about the matches where I'd pop a UAV that lit up practically all of the other team helping my side immensely? Nope. You get nothing and you will like it! Legging a light so my assault teammate could kill it? Well, I got 10 points for an assist, but nothing for being the one who actually made the kill possible. In fact, I'd have been vastly better off simply going for the kill myself so I could get the solo or at least most damage even if it took longer and allowed my assault teammate to take that much more damage. And what about the brawling I did vs assaults? That was fantastic for my team because a 60 ton mech taking down a 90+ ton mech is a huge bonus, espec since I did this solo a few times. But it was terribad for my score because again, I have 1120 damage and if I pour half or more of that into a single mech, well...

Which ultimately brings me to the worst thing about the current leaderboard scoring: it encourages bad play. The best way to play for leaderboard position is to get a group and go light/medium mech hunting. You need solo kills, Light mechs make that easy. Never mind that this leaves your team undermanned while your off chasing rabbits. It doesn't even matter if it costs you the match. The difference between winning and losing is negligible vs getting solo kills or kills most damage. So, load up on cool shots, build a laser boat, and chase rabbits ftw! Blech.

Another thing I noticed running roflman which are such delicate flowers is that your teammates in pugs usually are clueless (I'm definitely not talking about you...I'm talking about all the other people who are not you...you are obviously awesome, and I'd be honored to have you as my wingman). Getting shot in the back in a normal heavy is slightly annoying, but you have armor and hitpoints to spare, so it's not critical. Getting shot in the back in the roflman, even after you fixed the stock rear armor, is deadly. And your teammates do shoot you in the back. A lot. Both at the start of matches when setting up weapons or just because they have the patience of a weasel on methamphetamine as well as during the match because they forget that mechs have arms and the arms have weapons and are off to the side and directly behind the roflman they decided to cuddle with.

Speaking of cuddling, I want head-mounted, 60 degree downward, rear-firing machine gun for all my mechs. This machine gun should not be assessed team damage. That way when I back up, if you're standing behind me, you get shot in the face. In fact, I want a little rotary halo to mount this thing so I can fire in any direction at teammates who screw up my maneuvering by trying to cuddle with me.

I'm not even going to get into all the times I had teammates milling about, wandering off on their own, ignoring the mech shooting me even if it was their only possible target, etc. Y'all know the words to this part of the song. You can just sing along.

Back to the leaderboard...

The big problem with solo que pugs is that the matches themselves don't lend themselves to solo kills which are so overvalued. Either a) your team wanders apart and gets splatterized by the other team which makes lots of kills impossible, or b ) the other team wanders apart and gets splatterized before you can get to more than one or two of them, and one or two solo kills isn't going to net you many points.

So, in my not-at-all-humble opinion, the scoring needs changed. Solo kills shouldn't count at all. Kills most damage should net you 5 extra points each vs a regular kill or kill assist. Scouting a mech should count as half a kill, and if that mech is killed while you're holding target, you get the other half. Counter ECM should be worth something as should landing a NARC or tag laser that in turn gets hit by a teammate. Capturing should get you some points. Damage, oddly enough, might be about right with the current formula as long as you use it as the basis for setting the other point values. Oh, and damage taken in a match should cost you 1/8 of a point which should be enough to encourage smart play but not so much as to encourage cowardice.

In other words, make being a good all around pilot more important than solo kills.

Edited by Xavori, 21 February 2016 - 08:53 PM.

[Xavori]

One other thought I just had...

The rewards are pretty meh, and don't really fit the kind of players that are actually going to get them.

Sure, GXP (top 25) and 5M C-Bills (top 10) would be great for a new player, but utterly worthless for an experienced player who's already got the stuff he wants. I do like the 1000MC for top 5, but other than that, totally unmotivating.

So how 'bout next time around you award a free mech and mech bay for top 50, and a unique paint job for the top 25 (prolly have to limit to usable only on the current events mech in order to make sure the winner can actually use it). Or maybe actually give us a champion decal to stick on the backside of our mech so our teammates can see we've been amongst the best in a mech just before they shoot us in that same backside.

[LegendaryArticuno]

Just my "thotz", but this is one cool story bro. Not TLDR at all!

[Xavori]

LegendaryArticuno, on 22 February 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

Just my "thotz", but this is one cool story bro. Not TLDR at all!

No, it's tl;dr. I mean, I didn't even want to read all of it and I wrote it

[adamts01]

Xavori, on 21 February 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Which ultimately brings me to the worst thing about the current leaderboard scoring: it encourages bad play.

Events are absolutely terrible for gameplay. Now they seem to have a new one every week. I've just stopped playing all together. I'm taking another year off. Been playing a lot of Squad, plus Division will be out soon. I'll check back when the next version of CW comes out.

[PyckenZot]

Very nice read!

But:

Xavori, on 21 February 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

Getting shot in the back in a normal heavy is slightly annoying, but you have armor and hitpoints to spare, so it's not critical. Getting shot in the back in the roflman, even after you fixed the stock rear armor, is deadly.

Now this has me completely stunned,... you didn't actually INCREASE the rear armor, did you?

Xavori, on 21 February 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

In other words, make being a good all around pilot more important than solo kills.

Couldn't agree more. That and they need to put a match limit in (which of course won't happen as they need peeps playing and would also result in sabotaging,... long live the interwebs) The only time I made a leaderboard was being sick at home and nothing else to day than defend my spot all weekend long

Edited by PyckenZot, 22 February 2016 - 06:31 AM.

[TamCoan]

Honestly it's no simple solution. Eventually you will realize that going for "kill most damage" isn't even an effective way to judge skill.

Case in point from this weekend. A dual AC Jager comes around the corner and my team starts sandblasting the armor from it. They are hitting arms, legs, all three torsos and running around trying not to get hit with the dual AC shots. Knowing that he is running an XL engine I run my crab behind him, line up a side torso shot and unload into it. His engine blows, he dies, I get the kill and the match continues. I did maybe 40-50 points of damage to him to take him out as quickly as possible. No way I could get the MDK. However I saved a bunch of teammates, reduced their panic and took out a major threat.

On the flip side, I had a number of matches this weekend where I did an average of 800pts damage, netted a few kills and never got a single MDK.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it's difficult to judge and reward skill based on a subjective number somewhere. Just play to have fun and not worry about "leaderboards". :-)

[sycocys]

The leaderboard system is a fail as long as they continue to let people have their teams artificially boost their stats in group queue.

Really no point to it at all until the points exploit is taken away.

[Xavori]

TamCoan, on 22 February 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

. Just play to have fun and not worry about "leaderboards". :-)

Easy for you to say. You don't have an ubercompetitive streak the compels you to work towards being the top of any pvp list

'Tis what I ended up doing tho since the roflman is just way more fun for me as assassin which is definitely gameplay that does not lend itself to leaderboard scores.

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

The leaderboard system is a fail as long as they continue to let people have their teams artificially boost their stats in group queue.

Really no point to it at all until the points exploit is taken away.

I wouldn't go so far as to call teamwork an exploit. Yes, a group of friends working together with most of the team going for leg shots and distractions can definitely push scores up for their buddy they're feeding solo kills to, but the fix for this is the same as leaderboards overall, make being a good pilot more important than just solo kills when it comes to scoring.

[Sandpit]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

The leaderboard system is a fail as long as they continue to let people have their teams artificially boost their stats in group queue.

Really no point to it at all until the points exploit is taken away.

Did you really just call teamwork an exploit...?

[sycocys]

Having a leaderboard that mixes - your team can intentionally boost your score up - with - try and do your best actually competing with the rest of your team and everyone else for the highest scores - only results in -- Epic Fail 101.

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Did you really just call teamwork an exploit...?

Yes it is in the sense of people intentionally boosting 1 player's score for a leaderboard.

Especially considering they are in the same board system as the solo players that are all competing individually.

[Sandpit]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yes it is in the sense of people intentionally boosting 1 player's score for a leaderboard.

can we talk about what the exploit really is then?
Teamwork isn't the exploit
Players throwing games, giving up kills, helping their cohorts boost their score, and otherwise violating the ToS and such is an exploit. Teamwork isn't

[sycocys]

Sandpit, on 22 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

can we talk about what the exploit really is then?
Teamwork isn't the exploit
Players throwing games, giving up kills, helping their cohorts boost their score, and otherwise violating the ToS and such is an exploit. Teamwork isn't

Well, that's still teamwork in the grander meaning of the word - its just exploitative for the purpose of giving 1 player an un-earned advantage in the leaderboard event. It probably does violate the ToS somewhere though.

[MerryIguana]

Exploiting as a group IS teamwork.

[sycocys]

The fixes are pretty easy -
1. Seperate Leader-boards for group/solo queue.
2. Group queue scores get averaged across the entire group - giving you a group score.

Can still be judged individually but you/your groups are going to have to actually play lights out good in order to get commanding leads or even keep leads.

Edited by sycocys, 22 February 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[Xavori]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

The fixes are pretty easy -
1. Seperate Leader-boards for group/solo queue.
2. Group queue scores get averaged across the entire group - giving you a group score.

Can still be judged individually but you/your groups are going to have to actually play lights out good in order to get commanding leads or even keep leads.

That wouldn't be that bad, espec if you tailored the rewards for each queue to be a bit different and more in-line with a group achievement (say awarding colors or patterns which will allow the group to put their mechs in "uniform" so to speak).

But it still needs to address the solo kills being the only thing that really gets judged vs actually judging everything that goes into being a good pilot.

[Aresye]

Anybody who complains about the current rewards 2.0 tournament formula has clearly not played any of the old leaderboards. Seriously.

It may have its flaws, but it's by far the fairest leaderboard score formula PGI has ever come up with.

Here's some examples of past event formulas:

Quote

In order to score 1 point you must:

• Get 1 or more Kill, Get 1 or more Assist, Survive, and Win the match via either the Primary or Secondary objectives

How this one even made it past the planning stages is beyond me.

Quote

Score formula: (Kills × 10) + (Kill Assist × 20) + ((Damage Done - Team Damage) ÷ 15) + (Wins × 20)

Game after game, your teammates ran straight into the enemy team with an ER large, tried to touch every player on the opposing team, and then died 30s into the match. What made it even worse, was that if you actually managed to overcome the odds and clutch a game with 8+ kills, those 2-3 guys on your team that suicided to get 12 assists would end up getting a higher score than you.

Quote

(Kills × 10) + (Spot Assist × 20) + (Kill Assist × 20) + (TAGNarc Assist × 20) + ((Damage - TeamDamage) ÷ 15)

Do you like LRMageddon? Because that's how you get LRMageddon.

Quote

Score formula: (Kills × 20) + (Kill Assist × 10) + ((Damage Done - Team Damage) ÷ 15) + (Wins × 20)

The opposite of the earlier mentioned kill assists formula. Now instead of rushing off and dying first, your teammates just simply waited for you to do all the work, and would literally plow through you, jump through you, shoot through you, or do anything else necessary to get dat kill.

See...it could be A LOT worse.

Edited by Aresye, 22 February 2016 - 01:54 PM.

[TamCoan]

Xavori, on 22 February 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Easy for you to say. You don't have an ubercompetitive streak the compels you to work towards being the top of any pvp list

I do actually.

I think I've finally come to a point in my life where I spend the majority of the day being competitive/adult and I need something like this to unwind. That doesn't mean that I don't strive to always do better, I'm just trying to hold back my competitive side, my wife tells me I gotta.

[Triordinant]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Seperate Leader-boards for group/solo queue.

This is the only way Leaderboards would have any real meaning.

[Sandpit]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

The fixes are pretty easy -
1. Seperate Leader-boards for group/solo queue.
2. Group queue scores get averaged across the entire group - giving you a group score.

Can still be judged individually but you/your groups are going to have to actually play lights out good in order to get commanding leads or even keep leads.

What's to stop someone from just tanking their PSR prior to an event like that so they can play at lower tiers to artificially inflate their scores that way?
The rewards are large enough on the top end to make that a reasonable scenario