33 replies to this topic

[Dirk Le Daring]

DrxAbstract, on 23 February 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

You know...

Knockdowns go both ways. People that get all nostalgic about 'the good ol knockdown days' when it comes to Lights humping their legs but conveniently forget it was entirely possible for a Jenner to put an Atlas on its a** back then so is that really something you would like - To have a 3-4 fleet of Lights flying through the air with their d**ks aimed right at your assault's face and sending it into the dirt as their team pushes? Because it happened "back in the day" and it will certainly start happening again.

You obviously did not comprehend a suggestion I put in there, last sentence....

I'll make it clear.....

If a light runs into a heavy or assault, it should fall down and sustain considerable damage. If a light runs into a medium, it should sustain considerable damage only.

This is what I mean, how hard can it be ? As for hit boxes / hit detection, we have that how else does one do damage to a component when firing upon an enemy mech ?

If a light runs into the leg of an atlas, at speed, not 20 kilometres an hour, it should have, at the minimum, no armour in the area / component which made contact with the atlas. I have seen as most of us have, smaller mechs hitting much larger ones at considerable speed with no real consequences. This is just not right.

So collision between light and medium = damage.

Collision between medium and heavy = damage.

Collision between heavy and assault = damage.

Collision between same weight classes should be a factor of both damage and knockdown.

Lights colliding with heavies and assaults = knockdown and damage.

For mediums and heavies same principle, with speed and mass factored in. Speed being the principle factor as to determining knockdown effect / probability.

Any way you look at it, the damage model is woefully inadequate when it comes to collisions.

[Dirk Le Daring]

YakkSlapper, on 23 February 2016 - 01:16 AM, said:

Ask the "light' that was stupid enough to try to hug my extremely slow (40 something kph) battlemasters legs (or was it thunderbolts?), my arm mount ac 5 KILLED his ***, just 'aim'allthe way down till you cant see targeting cursor, and fire, any idiot can guesstimate the speed its moving around you as its not compleatly hidden under you all the time, know your weapon, know its shots speed and fire whare you THINK (with good guess) and fire BLAMO dead light (was a locust)

or the one that was 11-11 score, my atlas with ONLY its gauss left, guess who died? (hint, wasnt me) was long back on tourmaline map, you only need a split second to see it even slightly, adjust your movement/twist and for fks sake DONT try n follow it, youll lose that circle, change direction and turn opposite way round to meet it, 12-11 win and everyone watching before kill said "well gg its over no way atlas gonna live' and other such crap, guess once again i was right and everyone else was WRONG.
and yes i DO want a cookie (inb4 torll)

yes BTW, I DO 'hero worship' ZatoIchi, you CAN hit what you cant see if you know how things move/preform, not always but hell one kill in 20 is better then 'gg' when its just down to the last 2 ppl still playing and a light is 'under' you learn to shoot whare something might be/be going, not just dead on, sheesh

Take, for example, if you can, an atlas with no weapons in the arms, an autocannon as the last weapon, and no ammo remaining for the missiles.

The side and centre torso components are in reasonable condition...

Describe, for us how that atlas can possibly bring to bear, that cannon on the light hugging the legs....

It (the light) will not even need to move, just stay hard up against the legs of the atlas. It suffers no real damage, and the atlas pilot, not only cannot see the light, but can never bring the weapon to bear on the target light as the mech itself is not capable of lowering the torso to make the shot. Think of the dead space of a tank, same thing here.... How is this right ?

[Dawnstealer]

I'd forego knock-down even for a "knock-back." Seriously, when they have knock-down implemented, it was apparently all the troll-rage to run super-fast Dragons and mow people over again and again and again. With knock-back, a mech would just get pushed out of the way.

And everyone knows about my weird love-affair with the Hatchetman, so of course I'm waiting for melee.

I still think there should be some sort of control-based "pilot check" where you're mech will act drunk while you set it right. This could be used for Knock-back, being legged, or even, GASP, gyro hits. YOU COULD HAVE GYRO HITS.

[Chrome Magnus]

WazOfOz, on 23 February 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

winter - I'm not so much I'm worried about an enemy light - medium getting behind and ****** me in an assault, I expect the enemy to use every thing within its arsenal to destroy me and my team, including exploits, if available.

what irks me,is the more mobile friendly's that choose to run through my mech rather than around, use me as a meat shield leaving no way to reverse, blocking ramps, exits & entrance ways etc.

what I seek is for people (friendly. more so than the enemy) to be more coherent,more situationally aware, even if that lesson must be learnt the hard way.

Thats cool but I'm fairly certain most people who want knockdown/high dmg want it for fighting the enemy and use friendlies as an excuse. Esp considering that lights make up a minority of mechs (often just 1 or 2) in a match and all other classes do exactly what you describe. I can't count the number of times I've seen an assault/heavy/med stand blocking a ramp or stopping a light from reversing. So folks want lights knocked down as some slow lumbering legs tried to push through them to hump through them or stood there like a statue when the light tried to flee.

I'm not entirely against the idea as it could be entertaining but then again I won't sit here and pretend it's because I want to combat occasional issues with friendly light mechs when in fact it's so I would have an easy kill when that fast moving light fell over too easily.

[Clownwarlord]

WazOfOz, on 23 February 2016 - 12:38 AM, said:

Twitter, apparently is the right place to ask questions about MWO, but I'll be bugga'ed before I'll make Twitter account.

my question is "knock down" are we ever gunna get it back into the game or not ? hello, hello is there anybody out there from PGI ? Tina ? Russ ? Paul ? even the tea lady will do.

Oh and those that choose to flame my question, can stick there heads into where the sun don't shine. my question is not aimed at you.

I think Russ said something like this last town hall.

Some day maybe, when we fix collision. Then fix knock down, and after that melee combat. But that is a long ways off if we every go down that route.

By no means is that the words he used but that is my understanding of what he was getting at. So most likely no but if they do maybe 10 years from now if lucky.

[Bilbo]

clownwarlord, on 23 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

I think Russ said something like this last town hall.

Some day maybe, when we fix collision. Then fix knock down, and after that melee combat. But that is a long ways off if we every go down that route.

By no means is that the words he used but that is my understanding of what he was getting at. So most likely no but if they do maybe 10 years from now if lucky.

As soon as they removed it, I figured we would never see it again. Same with convergence.

[Jables McBarty]

Dirk Le Daring, on 23 February 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

You obviously did not comprehend a suggestion I put in there, last sentence....

I'll make it clear.....

If a light runs into a heavy or assault, it should fall down and sustain considerable damage. If a light runs into a medium, it should sustain considerable damage only.

This is what I mean, how hard can it be ? As for hit boxes / hit detection, we have that how else does one do damage to a component when firing upon an enemy mech ?

If a light runs into the leg of an atlas, at speed, not 20 kilometres an hour, it should have, at the minimum, no armour in the area / component which made contact with the atlas. I have seen as most of us have, smaller mechs hitting much larger ones at considerable speed with no real consequences. This is just not right.

So collision between light and medium = damage.

Collision between medium and heavy = damage.

Collision between heavy and assault = damage.

Collision between same weight classes should be a factor of both damage and knockdown.

Lights colliding with heavies and assaults = knockdown and damage.

For mediums and heavies same principle, with speed and mass factored in. Speed being the principle factor as to determining knockdown effect / probability.

Any way you look at it, the damage model is woefully inadequate when it comes to collisions.

As I read it, this particular physic would just see Lights go from 12% to 7% of the gameplay. Only class that gets knocked down = weight class people don't want to play.

However I agree with the simple statement that speed should also be a factor. Because I've been in my Oxide, out of ammo, ramming a larger, slower, possibly stationary Mech's legs at speed, and barely doing damage to either of us. I'd rather see both of us taking at least some damage.

I think there should be more damage coming out of these collisions, but the solution is not to make it so that lights fall down all the time they hit something bigger than them. Make it a function of mutual speed. Because a ramming light that takes significant damage won't last long, hence dis-incentivizing reckless light play while still making the light a viable weight class and introducing a pseudo-brawling element.

It gives you a role besides meat-shield/distraction if you are completely out of ammo or disarmed. Take someone down with you.

[Clownwarlord]

To the arguement that lights don't get played enough, just stop it. The reason has more to do with PGI not introducing more lights but instead introducing heavy after heavy since like November.

[Bilbo]

clownwarlord, on 23 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

To the arguement that lights don't get played enough, just stop it. The reason has more to do with PGI not introducing more lights but instead introducing heavy after heavy since like November.

The light queue has always been the lightest of the four. The consecutive heavy releases doesn't help matters though.

[AEgg]

Dirk Le Daring, on 23 February 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

You obviously did not comprehend a suggestion I put in there, last sentence....

I'll make it clear.....

If a light runs into a heavy or assault, it should fall down and sustain considerable damage. If a light runs into a medium, it should sustain considerable damage only.

This is what I mean, how hard can it be ? As for hit boxes / hit detection, we have that how else does one do damage to a component when firing upon an enemy mech ?

If a light runs into the leg of an atlas, at speed, not 20 kilometres an hour, it should have, at the minimum, no armour in the area / component which made contact with the atlas. I have seen as most of us have, smaller mechs hitting much larger ones at considerable speed with no real consequences. This is just not right.

So collision between light and medium = damage.

Collision between medium and heavy = damage.

Collision between heavy and assault = damage.

Collision between same weight classes should be a factor of both damage and knockdown.

Lights colliding with heavies and assaults = knockdown and damage.

For mediums and heavies same principle, with speed and mass factored in. Speed being the principle factor as to determining knockdown effect / probability.

Any way you look at it, the damage model is woefully inadequate when it comes to collisions.

This isn't how collisions worked when we had them, and it isn't how they should work.

Lights could easily knock down assaults, and did it all the time. Lights still weigh up to a third of what an assault does, yet they're usually moving at least two or three times as fast. They're always going to win when the two collide (well, sort of, since both parties fall down and take damage).

It wasn't actually the knockdowns that did damage though, it was the teammates that had a free target while you got back up.

You only got knocked down in a light when you either glanced by a team mate, or ran into another light. Otherwise it was almost always both mechs falling down. Mediums and heavies would more often get knocked down by an assault that was still standing (since they move at similar speeds but weigh less).

Knockdowns make lights stronger against assaults, not weaker. Keep that in mind if that's why you want to reintroduce them.

Edit: More relevant to your proportional damage suggestion, you need to realize that both parties would take the same amount of damage, that's how collisions work. Yes, that damage would affect a light more than an assault, but enough damage to strip armor from a lights leg is still taking off almost half of the armor on the assaults leg.

Edited by AEgg, 23 February 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

They should start by doing knockdowns like in MW4. If you take x amounts of burst damage from projectiles, your mech falls down. You get blasted by 2xLBX20 in the face at short range? Your mech falls down. Your light mech gets gaussed in the leg in mid-air? Your mech falls down.

Then implement more damage from collisions, preferably to multiple components instead of just legs every time.

Finally, experiment with knockdowns from collisions on public test servers. It's been 4 years since they tried it. With some proper balancing, it would be a lot of fun to see it again. Obviously nobody wants mechs to fall down every time someone rubs against their leg.

If they made this so that X damage taken is a % of your mech's weight, than I would be all for it. Much like Winter, I just think the latency issue would be too drastic with what we currently have at hand. I would make the edit to say this: The one thing that would really worry me about adding this into the game is that Lights already have a pretty limited place in the game - if you take away their ability to scoot around slow mechs and shred them, as we've had all along, what does that limit them to in the game?

Edited by Trauglodyte, 23 February 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Sandpit]

clownwarlord, on 23 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

To the arguement that lights don't get played enough, just stop it. The reason has more to do with PGI not introducing more lights but instead introducing heavy after heavy since like November.

well to be honest heavies are where MWO needs the most diversity. They give you the widest selection of weight without chewing it all up whether that be in a CW drop deck or a group trying to make tonnage restrictions.

When it comes to lights they're also the most limited when it comes to loadout selection, even across different chassis. You're so limited on space that diversity among light builds is difficult. If you have 2 30 ton mechs and they both have the same basic hardpoint allocation there's not much point in introducing a 3rd with similar as well. Well, other than geometry and just personal opinion on "like it".

Heavies offer a lot more diversity in that because you can experiment a bit more with the loadouts because weight and size restrictions aren't nearly as harsh.

just another example
collisions are only lostech for MWO apparently
https://www.easports...-hockey-physics

[ManDaisy]

A sad shame... I don't think there is any valid reason not to have collisions.

[Dirk Le Daring]

Jables McBarty, on 23 February 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

As I read it, this particular physic would just see Lights go from 12% to 7% of the gameplay. Only class that gets knocked down = weight class people don't want to play.

However I agree with the simple statement that speed should also be a factor. Because I've been in my Oxide, out of ammo, ramming a larger, slower, possibly stationary Mech's legs at speed, and barely doing damage to either of us. I'd rather see both of us taking at least some damage.

I think there should be more damage coming out of these collisions, but the solution is not to make it so that lights fall down all the time they hit something bigger than them. Make it a function of mutual speed. Because a ramming light that takes significant damage won't last long, hence dis-incentivizing reckless light play while still making the light a viable weight class and introducing a pseudo-brawling element.

It gives you a role besides meat-shield/distraction if you are completely out of ammo or disarmed. Take someone down with you.

I'm not saying lights should always fall down, just trying to illustrate they are far more stable than they should be compared to an assault or heavy.

I think the speed factor should be a thing, as I stated, it may be the best solution for a core function for the mechanic.

I think we agree on the damage part, as I did not state assaults should not take the kind of damage that would be logical.

AEgg, on 23 February 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

This isn't how collisions worked when we had them, and it isn't how they should work.

Lights could easily knock down assaults, and did it all the time. Lights still weigh up to a third of what an assault does, yet they're usually moving at least two or three times as fast. They're always going to win when the two collide (well, sort of, since both parties fall down and take damage).

It wasn't actually the knockdowns that did damage though, it was the teammates that had a free target while you got back up.

You only got knocked down in a light when you either glanced by a team mate, or ran into another light. Otherwise it was almost always both mechs falling down. Mediums and heavies would more often get knocked down by an assault that was still standing (since they move at similar speeds but weigh less).

Knockdowns make lights stronger against assaults, not weaker. Keep that in mind if that's why you want to reintroduce them.

Edit: More relevant to your proportional damage suggestion, you need to realize that both parties would take the same amount of damage, that's how collisions work. Yes, that damage would affect a light more than an assault, but enough damage to strip armor from a lights leg is still taking off almost half of the armor on the assaults leg.

I remember the dragon bowling. Knockdown was poorly implemented.

I fail to see why a light should "win" when colliding with an assault, in fact it should be so damaged that the pilot gets the hell out of there and is careful in future. Not saying heavier mechs should not take proportional damage at all. Both mechs should be damaged.

I fail to see exactly how knockdown should make lights stronger against assaults, unless you are referring to how it was originally implemented. In which case, as I just stated, it was poorly executed.