95 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Because clearly those Small Lasers and Medium Pulse Lasers are shooting too far.

theyre not the lasers causing problems though. we all know what lasers are causing problems.

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People said that it made more sense to nerf PPCs than the buff lasers while we had the PPC/AC meta.

PPCs needed to be nerfed back then. And if all PGI had done was nerf PPCs it wouldve been fine.

PGI however went way overboard by nerfing PPCs, AC5s, JJs, and agility on victor/highlander.

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PPC is only usable on mech with 25-30% speed quirks, thats a joke. Imagine that lasers would only be usable with 25-30% range quirks....

And thats the whole point of quirks. You use the weapons that your mech has quirks for. PPCs have no business being on mechs that arnt supposed to use them.

But PPCs should be viable on the mechs that ARE supposed to use them like awesomes, warhawks, warhammers, marauders, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 24 February 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 February 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

theyre not the lasers causing problems though. we all know what lasers are causing problems.

Then maybe you shouldn't use the broad term "lasers" because that implies every single one of them.

Khobai, on 24 February 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

PPCs needed to be nerfed back then.

After the first velocity nerf to 1500, they didn't really need anything after that besides maybe a somewhat slower reload rate.

[Khobai]

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Then maybe you shouldn't use the broad term "lasers" because that implies every single one of them.

No it implies the ones that compete with PPCs since the context of the discussion was lasers vs PPCs.

[Homeskilit]

The heat is too damn high - makes them difficult to use with other weapons.
The velocity is too low - not as big a deal in quirked mechs.
The particles are ridiculously big - the shot either needs to be smaller or act like an LBX.

And the damage you get for all these negatives is terrible.

[wamX]

Homeskilit, on 24 February 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

The heat is too damn high - makes them difficult to use with other weapons.
The velocity is too low - not as big a deal in quirked mechs.
The particles are ridiculously big - the shot either needs to be smaller or act like an LBX.

And the damage you get for all these negatives is terrible.

I just appreciate your forum signiture "PPCs need love too"

[Homeskilit]

wamX, on 24 February 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

I just appreciate your forum signiture "PPCs need love too"

Thanks! Its nice to know there are other PPC fans out there Hopefully one day they will get the buff(s) they deserve.

Edited by Homeskilit, 24 February 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 24 February 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

theyre not the lasers causing problems though. we all know what lasers are causing problems.

All but the small kind? All the Large class lasers, even cERLLs are better than PPCs (pick your kind).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 February 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 February 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

All but the small kind?

There are actually some people on this forum that want smalls smacked down, particularly the Clan versions... Kolby here is one of them IIRC.

It's because brawling is apparently OP, or something like that.

Edited by FupDup, 24 February 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 24 February 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

There are actually some people on this forum that want smalls smacked down, particularly the Clan versions... Kolby here is one of them IIRC.

It's because brawling is apparently OP, or something like that.

I realized that as soon as I posted that, and am too lazy to go and add it in.

[Malleus011]

All ERPPC/PPCs could use a 20-30% velocity increase and corresponding reduction on quirks for those 'mechs who have giant PPC velocity quirks. If every 'mech needs a 30% quirk to compete, the base weapon is too slow.

The PPC could stand to have heat reduced by 1, and projectile size drastically reduced. Minimum range needs to be addressed (non MWO PPCs are not harmless under 90 meters). I would prefer making PPC's 'splash' 2.5 damage to either side under 90 meters, but scaling damage or other solutions would also work.

The ERPPC could stand to have heat reduced by at least 1, possibly a skosh more, and projectile size rapidly reduced.

IMHO, Gauss Rifles should have a negative synergy with PPC/ERPPC weapons, causing a 'ghost heat' trigger or other nerf when fired together.

Additional effects, while fun, don't really seem necessary and would require PGI to invest a chunk of extra coding time.

[Khobai]

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There are actually some people on this forum that want smalls smacked down, particularly the Clan versions... Kolby here is one of them IIRC.

the only small laser that can even be considered close to OP is the clan small pulse. 6 damage for 3 heat with super short beam duration is way too good IMO.

I certainly dont want to smack down its range though. it already has short enough range lol. Id probably just increase the heat slightly.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 24 February 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

the only small laser that can even be considered close to OP is the clan small pulse. 6 damage for 3 heat with super short beam duration is way too good IMO.

It's almost as if it pays for those stats with a very short range limit...

Oh wait, you already figured it out...

Khobai, on 24 February 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

it already has short enough range lol.

Khobai, on 24 February 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

Id probably just increase the heat slightly.

And please lolno to more heat, because that mostly hurts mechs that have limited tonnage to play with.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Malleus011, on 24 February 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

IMHO, Gauss Rifles should have a negative synergy with PPC/ERPPC weapons, causing a 'ghost heat' trigger or other nerf when fired together.

Why exactly? Lasers combine well with Gauss, so why shouldn't PPCs?

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 February 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Why exactly? Lasers combine well with Gauss, so why shouldn't PPCs?

It's a funny double-standard of this forum.

Weapon combinations (aka weapon MIXTURES) that sync well together like Goose/Energy are seen as undesirable, and yet some of those same people decry boat builds (aka builds that don't use weapon mixtures) as skilless crutches for dishonorable baddy ugly smelly scumbags.

[Scout Derek]

Reminds me of when b33f made this after PPC buff:

[TexAce]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 February 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

We currently have Dual Gauss, how many people are complaining about that? PPCs also have high heat compared to the Gauss's 1.

How many mechs can field 3 gauss rifles at all? Thats why there is no uproar. On the other hand how many could field 4 or more PPCs?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 February 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Or it is too slow that against any good poker you are unable to react fast enough to hit reliably unless you are trying to time their pokes, and even then the reward isn't worth the risk.

See thats just stupid, you are saying the long travel time is not worth the risk. Seriously? In which situation it is worth the risk? The poker will get you the same no matter how you shoot back. Or are you saying its not worth to poke with ppcs? If you want to poke from kilometers away, take Gauss.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 February 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Keeping certain weapons ineffective is somehow "dumbing" down the game ? Making it hard to aim or hit reliably doesn't make this game "smarter", it just reduces the number of strong weapons.

No, thats not what I've said. I said making the travel time as short as on gaussrifles would dumb down the game, since it would just be point-click. Having to lead a target requires more skill.


The PPC is nothing more than an AC10 which uses heat as ammo and is 5 tons lighter. I don't mind OP's side-effects at all, but making it another insta-hit weapon and to sync it with gauss is NOT the way to go. We already were there, it was not fun. Lets not get back to it.

Edited by TexAce, 24 February 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Deathlike]

Like Hoverjets™ and Hoverboards (the latter not being able to actually hover), PPCs are going to continue to be relegated to "only usable by quirks" by our balance overlord.

Having useful weapons is considered Lostech - see MGs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

How many mechs can field 3 gauss rifles at all? Thats why there is no uproar. On the other hand how many could field 4 or more PPCs?

I suggested raising the ghost heat to 3 (so that you can fire 3 without penalty), so what does the number of 4 PPC mechs have to do with anything since they would still have to split fire like they do currently to avoid ghost heat.....

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

See thats just stupid, you are saying the long travel time is not worth the risk.

How is that stupid, and yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying.

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Or are you saying its not worth to poke with ppcs?

Yes, this includes ERPPC which technically have longer optimal range than Gauss and ERLLs but is beat by both at that range (and Gauss even has trouble beating ERLL without quirks at 1000m or so).

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

since it would just be point-click. Having to lead a target requires more skill.

Hyperbole, not even Gauss are point-click at 800m.

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

We already were there, it was not fun. Lets not get back to it.

Except things have changed since then, namely JJs, but also Clans and quirks have changed things drastically, so let's not use this tired excuse like the situations are comparable. Syncing with Gauss (or really any other ballistic) is not a bad thing since weapon synergy is actually good as it encourages something other than pure PPC boats, something people continually forget. As for obsoleting the AC10, who says I don't support a velocity increase for it too, because guess what, I do (and all other ballistics as well outside maybe Gauss).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 February 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[TexAce]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I suggested raising the ghost heat to 3 (so that you can fire 3 without penalty), so what does the number of 4 PPC mechs have to do with anything since they would still have to split fire like they do currently to avoid ghost heat.....


How is that stupid, and yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying.


Yes, this includes ERPPC which technically have longer optimal range than Gauss and ERLLs but is beat by both at that range (and Gauss even has trouble beating ERLL without quirks at 1000m or so).


Hyperbole, not even Gauss are point-click at 800m.


Except things have changed since then, namely JJs, but also Clans and quirks have changed things drastically, so let's not use this tired excuse like the situations are comparable. Syncing with Gauss (or really any other ballistic) is not a bad thing since weapon synergy is actually good as it encourages something other than pure PPC boats, something people continually forget. As for obsoleting the AC10, who says I don't support a velocity increase for it too, because guess what, I do (and all other ballistics as well outside maybe Gauss).

Yeah lets make everything nearly point-click. hooray.

And to your other comment: The Gauss rifle is 15 points of damage to ONE location. You can field your ERLL as much as you want, you wont get it all into one location. At 1000m its 11-12 points of damage to one location, try doing that with an ERLL at 1000m.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 24 February 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

Like Hoverjets™ and Hoverboards (the latter not being able to actually hover), PPCs are going to continue to be relegated to "only usable by quirks" by our balance overlord.

To be fair, Class IV JJs (medium JJs) are actually really nice (and better than Class V for whatever reason), unfortunately they are the only ones.

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

Yeah lets make everything nearly point-click. hooray.

Hyperbolic, but either way, we kind of have that already.....

TexAce, on 24 February 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

At 1000m its 11-12 points of damage to one location, try doing that with an ERLL at 1000m.

You may spread it across the torso, but it is still more consistent damage than most projectiles, or do you think that comp players take ERLL mechs for 1000m because we like to kill targets inefficiently? Though if the JM6-A wasn't so slow, it would be used more often, because 2700m/s Gauss is much nicer to use at that range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 February 2016 - 12:24 PM.