146 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 February 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

The standard, vaunted TBR build (2xLPL, 4xERML) has the firepower of a kitfox (with worse heat management) and the speed and agilty of a Warhawk once it loses a ST. How much damage would you expect to do with a Timberwolf sized, Warhawk speed, Kitfox armed mech? Yeah, its sweet FA. It IS better than being dead, but the game effect is actually minimal. In CW for example, if someone loses an ST in a Clan mech? Invariably they go full aggressive to die asap so they can get a new mech.

I was with you until this part. 2 ERMLs and 1 LPL is still a 27 point alpha. That's not insignificant. If you play smart and stick to the rear of the column after losing a ST, you can still contribute plenty of damage for the team. And if you have to die, the enemy still has to expend heat and ammo to finish you off, keeping the pressure off your teammates a little bit longer. I would rather have a clumsy, oversized Kit Fox at my side than nothing at all.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kaeb Odellas, on 26 February 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

I was with you until this part. 2 ERMLs and 1 LPL is still a 27 point alpha. That's not insignificant. If you play smart and stick to the rear of the column after losing a ST, you can still contribute plenty of damage for the team. And if you have to die, the enemy still has to expend heat and ammo to finish you off, keeping the pressure off your teammates a little bit longer. I would rather have a clumsy, oversized Kit Fox at my side than nothing at all.

As i said, it IS better than being dead, but its very rare that you get more than another 50-100 dmg out of the mech - largely because in CW you are looking to do as much dmg as possible, and your DPS goes through the floor with a missing ST, so normally you want a new mech ASAP.

What im saying is its not the super game changing advantage everyone makes it out to be. Im not saying its not an advantage.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Ulris Ventis, on 26 February 2016 - 02:36 AM, said:

Isn't the whole problem with IS XL engines comes out from 'Mech proportions that are somewhat invalid?
Some Mechs are too damn wide for their own good, like Awesome, or have bad ST positions like Cataphracts.
Currently mastering Black Knight and I don't have any problem running XL, if I die usually ST and CT are both orange/red at that point anyway. But that's the same, since proportions are better and more often than not you get hit in CT.

It's true that some IS 'Mesh are "safer" to run XL than others, but the majority just aren't "safe" at all (I use "safe" loosely here, considering the point of the game is blow each other up).

The Quirk compensation IS is getting to create the illusion of balance just doesn't cut it. Further, it muddies the waters when considering other aspects of balance; namely weapons.

For clarity and fairness of balance and game play, we need a solid foundational balance. That's engines: they are the foundation of durability and durability is the foundation of damage.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 February 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

As i said, it IS better than being dead, but its very rare that you get more than another 50-100 dmg out of the mech - largely because in CW you are looking to do as much dmg as possible, and your DPS goes through the floor with a missing ST, so normally you want a new mech ASAP.

What im saying is its not the super game changing advantage everyone makes it out to be. Im not saying its not an advantage.

It's interesting that you mention it not being game changing. In sense, you're right. But that's only in the over-Quirked game we have now. Take away those Quirks and this becomes more meaningful.

Moreover, we need this change so we can make the Quirks system more meaningful.

Quirks shouldn't be just generic buffs. They should be reflections of the 'Mech's unique characteristics, a point of differentiation that make each 'Mech feel different.

As long as engines stay as they are, Quirks will be the primary balancing mechanism. As long as Quirks are the primary balancing mechanism they will remain generic.

[Johnny Z]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 February 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

As i said, it IS better than being dead, but its very rare that you get more than another 50-100 dmg out of the mech - largely because in CW you are looking to do as much dmg as possible, and your DPS goes through the floor with a missing ST, so normally you want a new mech ASAP.

What im saying is its not the super game changing advantage everyone makes it out to be. Im not saying its not an advantage.

The don't get any more damage after losing a side torso because Clan pilots are bad. But what they do instead is draw tons of fire until finally going down, where as the Inner Sphere pilots match and damage soaking was over far before.

You know why Clan pilots are bad, its because their mechs are faster and do more damage and easy mode doesn't make good pilots.

Edited by Johnny Z, 26 February 2016 - 04:56 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Kaeb Odellas, on 26 February 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

I was with you until this part. 2 ERMLs and 1 LPL is still a 27 point alpha. That's not insignificant. If you play smart and stick to the rear of the column after losing a ST, you can still contribute plenty of damage for the team. And if you have to die, the enemy still has to expend heat and ammo to finish you off, keeping the pressure off your teammates a little bit longer. I would rather have a clumsy, oversized Kit Fox at my side than nothing at all.

My Thunderbolt starts the match with the same stats as a Timberwolf with a side torso gone. My Thunderbolt runs a standard engine and has a 33 point alpha with 3 LPL. This is why Clan pilots are bad.

[Widowmaker1981]

Johnny Z, on 26 February 2016 - 04:54 AM, said:

The don't get any more damage after losing a side torso because Clan pilots are bad. But what they do instead is draw tons of fire until finally going down, where as the Inner Sphere pilots match and damage soaking was over far before.

You know why Clan pilots are bad, its because their mechs are faster and do more damage and easy mode doesn't make good pilots.

You are an idiot who believes that people are either 'Clan Pilots' or 'IS Pilots'

Just because YOU have a massive lore affiliation for one side doesn't mean everyone else does. I play Clan and IS mechs as much as each other. Do i suddenly becomes a worse pilot when im driving a Clan mech?

********** with your absurd bias. Try understanding that different people have different thoughts to you, and that those thoughts are not incorrect or wrong just because they disagree with YOU. it will help you a great deal in life to get that through your head.

Johnny Z, on 26 February 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

My Thunderbolt starts the match with the same stats as a Timberwolf with a side torso gone. My Thunderbolt runs a standard engine and has a 33 point alpha with 3 LPL. This is why Clan pilots are bad.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Did you seriously just try to claim a fresh TDR-9SE with 3xLPL is somehow equal to a Timberwolf with a missing side torso? Go home Johnny, you're drunk.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 February 2016 - 05:06 AM.

[Ulris Ventis]

I've scratched my head a bit on this whole matter.
So, why not to address the problem with the current hitbox and internal structure primitive system?

Right now when you hit any part of a Torso hitbox (for example), you have an RNG chance to destroy some structural component, the larger it is the more is the chance (like with Gauss). Ok, so a mech has a limited amount of slots in every part and they could be actually drawn on a base model, and then merged as XL engine parts, ammo boxes, DHS/HS or weapon parts.
Let's not make things difficult with armor, I believe it's quite alright atm, hitting a large hitbox (TS) will scrap armor, until it's all gone.
Here is where things change. You want to destroy a weapon? Shoot a weapon component of the mech to detonate it faster (Basically it's located where the visible component is). You want to blow the engine faster? Shoot the part of torso where it is located, it will take damage and get destroyed. To make things a little more interesting - Engine is protected by weapon component, so until it's destroyed you won't damage the engine, but the engine is vulnerable to direct fire from the rear. This will help huge mechs have better chances even with huge torsos.
Right now, to do a headshot, you do actually need to hit a small hitbox in a specific place and nobody has any problems with it.

Until RNG presents with internal structure the problem with IS XL engines will not go away.

Edited by Ulris Ventis, 26 February 2016 - 05:22 AM.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Ulris Ventis, on 26 February 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

I've scratched my head a bit on this whole matter.
So, why not to address the problem with the current hitbox and internal structure primitive system?

Right now when you hit any part of a Torso hitbox (for example), you have an RNG chance to destroy some structural component, the larger it is the more is the chance (like with Gauss). Ok, so a mech has a limited amount of slots in every part and they could be actually drawn on a base model, and then merged as XL engine parts, ammo boxes, DHS/HS or weapon parts.
Let's not make things difficult with armor, I believe it's quite alright atm, hitting a large hitbox (TS) will scrap armor, until it's all gone.
Here is where things change. You want to destroy a weapon? Shoot a weapon component of the mech to detonate it faster (Basically it's located where the visible component is). You want to blow the engine faster? Shoot the part of torso where it is located, it will take damage and get destroyed. To make things a little more interesting - Engine is protected by weapon component, so until it's destroyed you won't damage the engine, but the engine is vulnerable to direct fire from the rear. This will help huge mechs have better chances even with huge torsos.
Right now, to do a headshot, you do actually need to hit a small hitbox in a specific place and nobody has any problems with it.

Until RNG presents with internal structure the problem with IS XL engines will not go away.

It's still just more effective and simpler to make isXL survive ST loss and more meaningful to buff Std engines, as they're really not very viable as is; especially to Clan 'Mechs.

[TamCoan]

Honestly if they buffed is XL engines to clan levels, I would abuse that all day long. Currently the only limitation I feel with my IS heavies and assaults is the need to run standard engines on most of them for survivability. That limits my speed and weapon loadout as I have to spend tonnage on the STD weight. The only bonus clan has right now is the ability to hit me from a longer range. I can out sustain them, rarely overheat, have a lower burn time, better AC mechanics, more general durability via quirks. Throw in better xl engines into the mix? Game over!

The affect of buffing IS XL engines is larger than just the engine itself.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Monkey Lover, on 25 February 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'm all for letting clans to use std but I'm wondering who would do it I'm not using stds on any of my 2c mechs. I just see the reason to zombie around for the cost of so much tonnage.

I use a STD 275 on the dual ballistics orion IIC so I can run dual gauss. Mostly because I'm too cheap and lazy to kit it out with an XL since I do awful in the darn things.

[RangerGee412]

How about instead of instant death when losing a side torso with an ISXL, You get another 15 20 seconds of life before your mech dies. It let you get some more shots off and hopefully allow you to take the enemy with you.

Either way I thin xl engines are fine.

[Variant1]

MiniKin, on 25 February 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

I know that when you lost a left or right torso in the tabletop game you died if you were IS and had an XL engine. 3 engine hits and you died on all mechs. This was fine on the tabletop where you had hit location RNG on your side - I get it. The problem with MWO is that you can choose where you want to hit and hit it with good accuracy; often times this is the left or right torso so that you can get rid of weapons from the arm and torso and if they have an XL engine they die. This has led to having to get rid of all XL engines on all my mechs so I could survive longer. This is an option that has become useless.

Is there any chance that it could be changed where you lost performance instead?

Sorry OP but i have to stronly disagree with you here. XL engines already reduce a significant amount of engine weight to boat lots of weapons and have high speed. Infact we should make all mech center torso hitboxes smaller so that STD engine are much easier to survive this will also help nerf those high damage alpha strike since it will be easier to twist the damage, this change wont even nerf xl since it will be easier to torso twist with XL to the other fully health side.

[Almond Brown]

If they allow/change Clan and I.S. Engines to be the same, then what next. Weapons will surely be next because they are definitely not the same and as such many will target them as the next great imbalance.

This slope is more than just Slippery, it is a very treacherous abyss that MWO may not survive falling off...

P.S. Best to go over to HBS's website and start telling them how their BT based Rule-Set will need to be modified, as surely the actual BT Rules are not good enough even for an actual BT based Turn based game... All who seek "balance" over there as well, will surely be welcomed with open arms... )

[Y E O N N E]

I recognize the advantages to balance by making IS and Clan XL engines behave the same.

I do not want it.

There is a certain thrill to be had in trying to both protect that IS XL and still be threatening in combat.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

Kaeb Odellas, on 25 February 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

Just penalize IS XL side torso loss more than Clan XL. The Clan XL loses something like 20% performance, right?

Give the IS XL a harsher performance penalty, like 50% or something. At the same time, give Standard engines some kind of buff to compensate. Something like:

-Increase twist speed 10%. Standard engines would have a lower moment of inertia (more mass concentrated near the axis of rotation)
-Increase twist angle 10%. Standard engines don't poke out to the side torsos, so they don't interfere with twist?
-Increase CT structure by 1 point per rating / 20. Standard engines are more dense, so they can absorb damage more readily, with bigger engines being denser and tougher. A STD 200 engine would give 10 points to CT, while a STD 400 engine gives 20.

This change would tighten the engine gap between IS and Clans while keeping standard engines an attractive option. 50% performance loss is a harsh penalty, and probably a death sentence for Lights, but still better than dying immediately.

Change the penalty to ST lose to reflect how much of the engine you lose. Clan XL is 10 Slots and you lose 2, thats 1/5 of the engine hence the 20% power reduction we have. IS XL is 12 slots and loses 3, which is 1/4 of the engine and so should reasult in a 25% performance lose. Id still avoid XLs in Assaults and a number of heavies, that 25% lose would be a deaths knell for low twisting turning mechs. But I would at least entertain the idea of XLs more in IS mechs than I do now, which is pretty much a no go for me on anything over 55 tons.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

Khobai, on 25 February 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

except PGI is trying 1:1 balance. for 1:1 balance to work you need CXL and ISXL to be the same.

LFE only makes sense if IS and clans arnt 1:1 balanced. Since LFE is a worse version of CXL. LFE just doesnt make sense the way MWO is setup at present.

Because LFE admits IS tech is inferior to Clan tech. And 1:1 balance contradicts that notion.



XL penalties should be dropped anyway. Because omnimechs shouldnt be penalized for not being able to choose a different engine.

XL engines are supposed to be an upgrade over STD engines. The only reason its not is because MWO has aiming and convergence instead of random hit locations. Even 100 ton assaults like the devastator rock XL engines in tabletop. And theyre not afraid of doing it because of random hit locations.

STD engines are like single heatsinks... theyre an outdated technology. The only real way to make the STD appealing compared to CXL would be to add engine crits to the game. When CXL loses 4 slots the engine is destroyed; while the STD engine would have to lose 6 slots.

There is a certain amount of flexibility that Ill give PGI over the classic TT rules. But if a ClanXL is ever equal to a ISXL im out. Clan tech must remain superior, even if by a small margin, or this isnt Battletech and they are just cashing in on the names value. I mean this already isnt Battletech but I give them some leway as some TT things have to be adjusted for a "live fire" environment. LFE is fine, ClanXL=ISXL isnt.

[BigBenn]

I think the IS mechs should NOT explode, but rather have an effect similar to Clan mechs when their engines get hit, but on a larger scale. Say..... like a 50% loss in speed.

I agree though, the insta-death of the ST XL engine hit is a bit much.

Oh... and REMOVE THE CHARGE UP ON THE GAUSS!!!

Edited by BigBenn, 26 February 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

Khobai, on 25 February 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

and what im saying is clan standard structure needs an even bigger incentive. because clan endo is even better and theres even less reason to use clan standard structure.



Youd have to be a re tard to ever use std structure on a kodiak.

its only 7 crit slots for 5 extra tons from endo which you can use to jack up its engine rating since the kodiak will have no engine cap. 5 tons buys you a whole lotta XL engine.

kodiak will always have endo. and probably even use ferro a lot of the time too. with endo and ferro its basically like a 108-109 ton mech.

thats my whole point... clan standard structure needs some huge incentives over clan endo. just so the direwolf wont look so bad for being stuck with standard structure while the kodiak rocks endo.

Kodiak doesnt need a bigger engine. Its default XL400 on all variants.

[Armorine]

havent heard anything in this thread that convinces me this is a good idea. everything ive read tells me its a bad idea. xls are a trade. more weapons, armor, speed for increased vulnerability. clans get a better xl yes. but they also dont have the options of complete customization. this will just open a balance can of worms we arnt prepared to deal with. more then that this is a step too far from lore.