127 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

isXL aside, I think it basically boils down to making every IS equipment superior in some way (think PPFLD isACs) because Clanners can mount more of the equivalent thing. This would then contradict the Clan's supposed technological edge which is lame. Therefore, balancing through quirks is crucial and part of MWO where asymmetrical force doesn't exist.

What do you think?

[Mystere]

Hit the Deck, on 20 February 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

isXL aside, I think it basically boils down to making every IS equipment superior in some way (think PPFLD isACs) because Clanners can mount more of the equivalent thing. This would then contradict the Clan's supposed technological edge which is lame. Therefore, balancing through quirks is crucial and part of MWO where asymmetrical force doesn't exist.

What do you think?

You already named a possible solution. You just don't want to consider it.

[Hit the Deck]

Mystere, on 20 February 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

You already named a possible solution. You just don't want to consider it.

What I wrote doesn't represent my opinion, but PGI's or the general player base's.

[Wolfways]

Hit the Deck, on 20 February 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

What do you think?

I think people should stop pretending that clan mechs carry more weapons than IS mechs unless those weapons are small. Clan mechs run hotter than IS mechs.
Also IS can run stock weapons without difficulty. Clan cannot run stock weapons without hugely restricting fire rate or they overheat. MWO's heat system was built for IS mechs running DHS.

[Hit the Deck]

Wolfways, on 20 February 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:

I think people should stop pretending that clan mechs carry more weapons than IS mechs unless those weapons are small. Clan mechs run hotter than IS mechs.
Also IS can run stock weapons without difficulty. Clan cannot run stock weapons without hugely restricting fire rate or they overheat. MWO's heat system was built for IS mechs running DHS.

Assuming that your last statement is correct, adjusting the heat system so that each party are more balanced with each other without quirks should be a right thing to do. But I'm not sure that it can lessen the Clan superiority, honestly, because here each player can customize their Mechs freely (i.e., Clanners can choose to not mount lasers if that makes their Mechs less superior).

[Aresye]

Hit the Deck, on 20 February 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

isXL aside, I think it basically boils down to making every IS equipment superior in some way (think PPFLD isACs) because Clanners can mount more of the equivalent thing. This would then contradict the Clan's supposed technological edge which is lame. Therefore, balancing through quirks is crucial and part of MWO where asymmetrical force doesn't exist.

What do you think?

I personally feel the weapon stats should be more or less equal between both sides. The IS should get something (ex: armor/structure buffs) to cancel out the Clan XL advantage, and the Clans should get something to cancel out the IS PPFLD advantage.

Balance CAN be achieved between both while still retaining individual flavor for both sides. For example:
IS: More Armor/Structure + PPFLD
Clan: CXL + Omnipod Customization

Mystere, on 20 February 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

You already named a possible solution. You just don't want to consider it.

Perhaps YOU should consider the fact that PGI explicitly stated they aren't going to do asymmetrical balance?

If you're gonna be an ***, at least make sure you're right.

[Mystere]

Aresye, on 20 February 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

Perhaps YOU should consider the fact that PGI explicitly stated they aren't going to do asymmetrical balance?

If you're gonna be an ***, at least make sure you're right.

Well, they also explicitly stated they would not do 3PV and Cool Shot. But we all know that was only their position at that time.

Edited by Mystere, 20 February 2016 - 11:53 PM.

[Moldur]

I think MWO needs to evolve as a game, or else Clans vs IS will never reach a balance. Instanced, solo, mixed matches are simply not the same as CW. We can't have a universal balance across such different game models.

MWO needs a flagship mode, that has the majority of players by far. Yes, I know most people don't touch CW, but MWO needs almost everyone on the same boat, and maybe then the game can truly be balanced to the tune of a single, all encompassing mode.

To give a more explicit answer to the question asked, I think mechs should be allowed to sink or float. Buff or nerf whatever clan and IS tech until the top tier of both are about the same, good and bad chassis on both sides will sort out the rest simply by existing. I recognize that if there were no quirks, the top clans would dominate the top IS, but the current system of "well this chassis is bad so quirk it" invites powercreep because there will always be an underperformer.

Edited by Moldur, 21 February 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[Tarogato]

In my opinion? Give the clans their range back, but nerf their laser durations significantly.

Edited by Tarogato, 21 February 2016 - 01:00 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Tarogato, on 21 February 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

In my opinion? Give the clans their range back, but nerf their laser durations significantly.

True, adjusting laser duration in one (sneaky) way to balance (nerf) the Clan without deviating too much from the TT rules or values.

Regarding the TT rules themselves, one could say that MechWarrior is based on BattleTech and not the table top game. This will open up a big window for interpretation (either good or bad, I'm not sure).

Edited by Hit the Deck, 21 February 2016 - 01:10 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 20 February 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

Well, they also explicitly stated they would not do 3PV and Cool Shot. But we all know that was only their position at that time.

I'm not taking a side here, but this post made me laugh out loud.

[Wintersdark]

Tarogato, on 21 February 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

In my opinion? Give the clans their range back, but nerf their laser durations significantly.

No.

I'm really strongly against long laser durations. It leads to bad gameplay - as in, not fun gameplay. Not just because of balance

But because long burn durations on lasers where you can't stop the burn results in a lot of terrible things, particularly at lower levels of play, where unintentional friendly fire skyrockets.

Either because people walk into the beams (which end up all over the map as people are fighting) or upon taking fire, they twist defensively and spray laser beams all over the place.

It's just not good.

Long laser durations are just not fun, and that's a serious problem in a game.

[Nightshade24]

Aresye, on 20 February 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

I personally feel the weapon stats should be more or less equal between both sides. The IS should get something (ex: armor/structure buffs) to cancel out the Clan XL advantage, and the Clans should get something to cancel out the IS PPFLD advantage.

Balance CAN be achieved between both while still retaining individual flavor for both sides. For example:
IS: More Armor/Structure + PPFLD
Clan: CXL + Omnipod Customization


Perhaps YOU should consider the fact that PGI explicitly stated they aren't going to do asymmetrical balance?

If you're gonna be an ***, at least make sure you're right.

Problem: what if the clan mech is running a standard engine? does this get insane armour buffs as the IS got armour buffs while having XL engines and such?
What about clan battlemechs without omnipods?

Your proposal nearly makes clan battlemechs obselete. (things like the IIC's, Kodiak, etc) as they can run without an XL engine [however not forced] and have no omnipods. Also omnipod customization isn't the strongest positive trait clans got, Some mechs can't do anything much with omnipods and/or can't out do an IS mech with similar build just because they can switch some hardpoints. For eg: Mist lynx , Summoner, Gargoyle... omnipod switching here barely gives any advantage and in some cases only a disadvantage. In other situations switching omnipods on a timberwolf to make it an LRM boat will not make it a superior LRM boat to it's IS counterparts



Anyway... can someone explain to me what asymmetrical balance is? I may know of it already but not the term.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

The answer is: you can't

You can bring the techs closer together by some specific features and such, but it will still end up with few good IS mechs, few good Clan mechs and tons of underperformers on both sides.

[Onimusha shin]

Tarogato, on 21 February 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

In my opinion? Give the clans their range back, but nerf their laser durations significantly.

As if IS lasers don't have enough OP ultra short laser burn durations. Now you want to tilt the balance of the ONLY favourable Clan weapon system even further?

Wintersdark, on 21 February 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

I'm really strongly against long laser durations. It leads to bad gameplay - as in, not fun gameplay. Not just because of balance

But because long burn durations on lasers where you can't stop the burn results in a lot of terrible things, particularly at lower levels of play, where unintentional friendly fire skyrockets.

Lasers as they stand right now, are too strong a weapon class, namely because of short burn durations. They excel every other weapon class unless you can boat 2 Gauss, 3 UAC5, 2-3 (U)AC10, 1-2 (U)AC20 or 24 SRMs or more.

They (strong laser boats) promote the peek, shoot, hide playstyle which punishes most ballistic boats which need facetime to deal equivalent damage.

The only reason I would leave lasers as they are now (except for C-erLL, that's an abomination) is because flamers are now actually a useful hard counter to laser boats.

[Wintersdark]

Onimusha shin, on 21 February 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

Lasers as they stand right now, are too strong a weapon class, namely because of short burn durations. They excel every other weapon class unless you can boat 2 Gauss, 3 UAC5, 2-3 (U)AC10, 1-2 (U)AC20 or 24 SRMs or more.

I didn't say they weren't. Just that longer burn times is not the way to go, for the reasons outlined above.

People like to take this "on paper" view to how longer burn times nerf lasers - and they're not wrong. It does increase threat to the firing mech who's a sitting duck while burning, it does allow the target to spread the damage better.

But it's the unintentional impact, the massive increase in friendly fire, that makes them less fun to use (totally unrelated to relative power). We've seen what happens with longer burn durations, and its horrible.

Nerf them in some other way.

[x Marder x]

Hit the Deck, on 20 February 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

isXL aside, I think it basically boils down to making every IS equipment superior in some way (think PPFLD isACs) because Clanners can mount more of the equivalent thing. This would then contradict the Clan's supposed technological edge which is lame. Therefore, balancing through quirks is crucial and part of MWO where asymmetrical force doesn't exist.

What do you think?

Tonnage that´s the only way.

[Yosharian]

Assymetric balance is extremely difficult to achieve. PGI doesn't have the ability to do it, judging by past performance. Quirks are here to stay.

[Tarogato]

Onimusha shin, on 21 February 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

As if IS lasers don't have enough OP ultra short laser burn durations. Now you want to tilt the balance of the ONLY favourable Clan weapon system even further?

I think you're missing the bit where the OP said "without quirks". Remember back when we didn't have quirks and Clan tech dominated head and shoulders over IS tech? Yeah. IS having slightly shorter duration didn't help - there would need to be a much larger difference between to the two to achieve balance.

[Eider]

Engines aside? Equalize damage example clan med 7 is med 5.. no thats bad. Secondly adjust heat/range to compensate. Clan has more range so make IS heat make up that percentage in being better. That would go a long way. And before people scream about IS fielding more lasers dont forget clans have omnipods.