252 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

Quaamik, on 08 March 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

Lowering the individual alphas, even if you did it to the extent of allowing mechs to only fire one weapon at a time, does not greatly reduce the effective team alpha.

Solaris 1 vs 1 will solve that problem.

[YueFei]

Quaamik, on 08 March 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I have high hopes but I'm expecting disappointment. Reasons:

A) There are two "alpha's" to be concerned with, and only one is being addressed:
---1) The alpha from a given mech (effectivley how many weapons it carries and can fire on a given target)
---2) The alpha from the team (how many weapons the team as a whole can fire on a given target at once)
Individual alphas are an annoyance. They rarely kill outright, though they often do significant damage.
C) Team alphas kill. Unerringly and with great prejudice.

Lowering the individual alphas, even if you did it to the extent of allowing mechs to only fire one weapon at a time, does not greatly reduce the effective team alpha.

That has to be addressed by having scout mechs that can peek safely without getting obliterated at medium to long range. That way they can peek safely and direct their team mates to better positions rather than letting their buddies crest in a godawful spot to get blasted by a firing line.

To be honest, I think it's already the case for light mechs with jump jets.

I'm not sure if that's true for light mechs without jump jets.

[Davers]

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 March 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

If there was a chance for ammo explosions at a fairly low heat, I think it would help curb low heat autocannon spam. You get the low heat, for good damage, but you risk blowing your cork. I would set the chance for ammo explosion at maybe 10% once you reach 20% heat, just to keep those poor ballistic guys from thinking they are the new meta. Then have it increase to like 15% at 50% then 20% at 75% then 35% at 80%+.

So, lasers would be hot as hell, generating alot of heat. Ballistics would possibly EXPLODE, pretty much out right killing you. I would also jack the overheat damage way up. Like 101% heat you start taking damage. I would make it 1 point per second, per point you are over the max. So you the max is 50, you are at 60 heat, you will take 10 dmg, then cool off like 4 heat per second, you will take 6 more, then 2 then finally be back below max with 18 heat done to your internal CT.

Wildstorm, on 04 March 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

I was thinking that the real risk is losing the weapon. CASE solves the ammo issue, but hurts weapon usage. I doubt they are testing this. Ghost Jam for all weapons used in an Alpha is more likely. Defining what an Alpha is will be worth watching. People will always min/max whatever they come up with.

He sure got us talking about possibilities though.

This would be quite the buff to Clan mechs as they get CASE for zero tons/slots in every location, while IS mechs can only carry it in the torsos at the cost of 1 slot and .5 tons.

[Random Carnage]

Ammo explosions are a bit much, but I'd support a "cook-off" mechanic where an auto-cannon has a percentage chance to fire another round after the trigger is released equal to the current heat percentage (capped at 90 pct), once a percentage equal to double your heat sinks is exceeded. If you have double heat sinks adding up to 15 (relax math {Godwin's Law}, it's just an example), your immune threshold is 30 heat, up to which point the cook-off mechanic doesn't come into effect, but at 31 heat, you have a 31 pct chance that another round will cook off in the chamber and fire regardless of whether the trigger is down or not.

So, if you're at 90 pct heat and stop firing, you have a 90 pct chance to cook-off another shot, followed by the normal cool-down period plus 1-4 seconds (reload time plus exposure to heat), at which point heat is recalculated and another shot may or may not go off etc, rinse and repeat until a heat falls to a point where the heat scale roll succeeds and the cook-offs stop.

COOK-OFF!..2...3...4...CLEAR! Ah, the good 'ol .50 cal...

[DerMaulwurf]

Random Carnage, on 09 March 2016 - 02:20 AM, said:

Ammo explosions are a bit much, but I'd support a "cook-off" mechanic where an auto-cannon has a percentage chance to fire another round after the trigger is released equal to the current heat percentage (capped at 90 pct), once a percentage equal to double your heat sinks is exceeded. If you have double heat sinks adding up to 15 (relax math {Godwin's Law}, it's just an example), your immune threshold is 30 heat, up to which point the cook-off mechanic doesn't come into effect, but at 31 heat, you have a 31 pct chance that another round will cook off in the chamber and fire regardless of whether the trigger is down or not.

So, if you're at 90 pct heat and stop firing, you have a 90 pct chance to cook-off another shot, followed by the normal cool-down period plus 1-4 seconds (reload time plus exposure to heat), at which point heat is recalculated and another shot may or may not go off etc, rinse and repeat until a heat falls to a point where the heat scale roll succeeds and the cook-offs stop.

COOK-OFF!..2...3...4...CLEAR! Ah, the good 'ol .50 cal...

You are Paul Inouye and I claim my 5 pounds.

Or at the very least you share his burning desire of pre-nerfing the AC/2 even when it's nowhere near being overpowered.

[Willard Phule]

Sandpit, on 08 March 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well the more I talk to and see what Russ says on Twitter, the more it looks like it's going to be a combination of heat scale and power draw system, which could be great at being able to mitigate all these alpha strikes.

With a heat scale and a ** system a mech would slow down as power is drawn from the power system. It could also add in dimming of the HUD to simulate targeting penalties.

It has a lot of potential.

I agree that the RoF combined with custom builds is the real issue, but customization isn't going anywhere we all know that. The more I see from Russ the more interested I am in this new system they're coming up with.

Power draw makes sense, especially if it's scaled with the engine size. The bigger the engine, the more power to draw on.

Sad part is....as cool as the idea sounds, PGI hasn't exactly amazed anyone with their ability to implement anything other than sales and cockpit items since launch. I've got a hunch this is going to break more than it fixes.

[Sandpit]

Willard Phule, on 09 March 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

Power draw makes sense, especially if it's scaled with the engine size. The bigger the engine, the more power to draw on.

Sad part is....as cool as the idea sounds, PGI hasn't exactly amazed anyone with their ability to implement anything other than sales and cockpit items since launch. I've got a hunch this is going to break more than it fixes.

well the more I talk to and hear from Russ I think the engine was a big issue and there's some things they'll hopefully be able to do soon that they weren't in the past.

Dynamic drop decks per planet?
Yes, they're looking into that after April

[Random Carnage]

DerMaulwurf, on 09 March 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

You are Paul Inouye and I claim my 5 pounds.
Or at the very least you share his burning desire of pre-nerfing the AC/2 even when it's nowhere near being overpowered.

And how does a cook-off mechanic nerf the AC2? RoF is unaffected. Range, projectile speed and damage remain the same.
Cook-off is not the same as a jam. Nothing about cook-off prevents you from firing again at any time. All it adds is a chance to fire when you take your finger off the trigger if your heat is high. It may result in slightly more ammo being used, but not huge amounts over all, and it means you'll need to be aware of the potential to hit a team mate if you run hot and don't watch where your AC's are pointing. It promotes chain fire over alpha strike, which is the whole intent.
If you want to run a hot AC build, that's on you.

[Kaptain]

Rhent, on 26 February 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

If they aren't going for ghost heat then they are going for a lower heat cap with faster heat dissipation. More than likely a 33 pt heat cap to allow for up to 3 PPC's to fire max while moving without shutting down.

Not possible they are that smart. Even if they were they would refuse out of spite, arrogance and pride.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Willard Phule, on 09 March 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

Power draw makes sense, especially if it's scaled with the engine size. The bigger the engine, the more power to draw on.

Sad part is....as cool as the idea sounds, PGI hasn't exactly amazed anyone with their ability to implement anything other than sales and cockpit items since launch. I've got a hunch this is going to break more than it fixes.

Last thing this game needs is another reason to bring as big engine as it is possible. We already have plenty. It would be logical, yes, but very bad for the gameplay.

Honestly, there are only 2 problems with ghost heat:
1. It is hard to grasp for new players, feels overcomplicated because of it's arbitrarity (3xPPC alpha? No. 2xPPC+3xLPL alpha? No problem.)
2. It still allows mixing large and medium laser types, allowing for a one-click alpha of almost perfectly synergising weapons. 2xAC20 for 40 dmg is a no-no, but 3xLPL+5xML for 58dmg is a A-OK? You can make mixed ACs or PPCs+ACs alphas, but the price is spread due to lack of perfect synergy between the weapons. Lasers are hitscan and thus they synergise PERFECTLY... on top on them already having the least restrictive ghost heat cap anyway (AC20 - 20dmg cap, PPC- 20dmg cap, ML-30dmg cap, LPL - 33dmg cap etc)

Hard to find words to describe how stupid it is, and how this mechanic alone makes lasers the best weapons possible, with overquirked AC boats second.

I'm kinda worried they'll gonna overdo that power draw system, limiting everything that's not causing problems (mixes like (u)ac5+PPC, AC20+mpl etc.), but without making the lasers the not-the-best-possible-choice-anyway.

EDIT:fix

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 10 March 2016 - 03:07 AM.

[Endost33L]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 10 March 2016 - 02:28 AM, said:

I'm kinda worried they'll gonna overdo that power draw system, limiting everything that's not causing problems (mixes like (u)ac5+PPC, AC20+mpl etc.), but without making the laser the lasers not-possible-choice-anyway.

This thing worries me too lets hope they get it right cause if im forced to chain single fire (u)ac5's and ppc's it will probably make me go play something else.

[DerMaulwurf]

Random Carnage, on 10 March 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

And how does a cook-off mechanic nerf the AC2? RoF is unaffected. Range, projectile speed and damage remain the same.
Cook-off is not the same as a jam. Nothing about cook-off prevents you from firing again at any time. All it adds is a chance to fire when you take your finger off the trigger if your heat is high. It may result in slightly more ammo being used, but not huge amounts over all, and it means you'll need to be aware of the potential to hit a team mate if you run hot and don't watch where your AC's are pointing. It promotes chain fire over alpha strike, which is the whole intent.
If you want to run a hot AC build, that's on you.

First, you need to actually demonstrate that hot AC builds are a problem that needs adressing. Then you need to take a closer look at which actual combinations are the most problematic.

Wasting ammo and heat buildup at random is a nerf any way you turn it. And since it's exclusively based on heat buildup, it hits the least heat-efficient weapon the hardest. It's a blanket-nerf plain and simple. And it hits a weapon system that has been historically nerfed several times without every having a warping effect on the meta.

Until you can demonstrate that all hot AC builds are problematic, your mechanic has no reason to exist. If you can demonstrate that a few hot AC builds are problematic, you should come up with a mechanic that is targeted.

[Random Carnage]

DerMaulwurf, on 10 March 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

First, you need to actually demonstrate that hot AC builds are a problem that needs adressing. Then you need to take a closer look at which actual combinations are the most problematic.

Wasting ammo and heat buildup at random is a nerf any way you turn it. And since it's exclusively based on heat buildup, it hits the least heat-efficient weapon the hardest. It's a blanket-nerf plain and simple. And it hits a weapon system that has been historically nerfed several times without every having a warping effect on the meta.

Until you can demonstrate that all hot AC builds are problematic, your mechanic has no reason to exist. If you can demonstrate that a few hot AC builds are problematic, you should come up with a mechanic that is targeted.

Not sure if you're deliberately being obtuse.

For the record, I run a dakka whale almost exclusively in various formats. I know better than most what AC is about.

I'll try one more time.

Hot AC builds are irrelevant to this "discussion". The discussion is about the possibility of a heat scale cap to limit Alpha.

Current thinking is about 33 points, or there about. Tell me, what would that do to your AC2 build, hmm?

My proposal was to have the cap remain unchanged, and to regulate Alpha in other ways. Energy through an engine size based power draw system, and AC through the cook-off mechanic which did not limit the ability of AC to fire all guns at once, but which encouraged a chain fire approach to manage heat build-up more effectively. The whole dame point of this thread is to discuss how they're going to limit Alpha, and yes, that includes your AC2's whether you like it or not. All that remains to be seen, it how badly they f*ck it up.

I suspect you have not read the entire thread.