199 replies to this topic

[MaxFool]

MareBrat, on 08 March 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

So I think that it is not a thing in balance but in organization. There's a lot of players that don't listen to company commander,just storm in, few pew-pew-pew and die. When you got organized team,you can run only on light's and you will win in most cases.

Mostly it's about who has more players able to do simple point&click and a bit of aggression. Because most players in all matches miss majority of their shots, while some players avoid even seeing the enemy.

[MischiefSC]

pbiggz, on 08 March 2016 - 05:49 AM, said:

Help I'm a terrible IS loyalist who blames my losses on clans being OP instead of facing the concept that my game might need to improve and the only place that starts is with me!

So you're the kind of person who does what all the other kids are doing?

[Rushin Roulette]

habu86, on 08 March 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

Bad pick of examples and here's why:

TBR-S v BLR-2C at long range becomes a poke fight. The BLR has better located hardpoints and cockpit (i.e. both high and aligned with each other) so it doesn't have to expose quite as much of itself as the TBR (a big, big deal in poke fights). Additionally, it's got shorter burn time on its weapons (1 second before quirks), so it dumps the damage quicker and can start torso-twisting to spread damage sooner.

What the heck are you talking about? Did you even attempt to look at either the TBR or the DWF builds? Longer burn times meaning longer face time for the clanners... WTF?
The TBR and DWF builds both have Large Pulse lasers and Gauss rifles. as their main armament vs. the regular Large lasers on the IS mech. The TBR can torsotwist faster than the BLR to spread the damage better latterally, has jumpjets to spread the damage vertically.
Regarding the immovability of the DFW, I even listed that as being a down side in my lineup.... because I am willing to look at ALL the data, not only the things I personally want to cherry pick out of everything. You guys seem to be lacking scope and are arguing through tunnel vision here.
Therefore... once again... you are proving my own point for me and disproving your own.

[habu86]

Rushin Roulette, on 09 March 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

What the heck are you talking about? Did you even attempt to look at either the TBR or the DWF builds? Longer burn times meaning longer face time for the clanners... WTF?
The TBR and DWF builds both have Large Pulse lasers and Gauss rifles. as their main armament vs. the regular Large lasers on the IS mech.

Might want to take another look at the numbers then. cLPL burn time is 1.1, LL burn time is 0.9 (with the BLR-2C burn time quirk). Gauss rifle can theoretically dump another 15 points of damage at ~660 meters with only a 0.75 charge time, but at that range the weapon needs some deflection against a moving target, so doesn't sync up perfectly with hitscan weapons, meaning you're probably best off timing the shot just as you laser burn ends.

Rushin Roulette, on 09 March 2016 - 03:31 AM, said:

The TBR can torsotwist faster than the BLR to spread the damage better latterally, has jumpjets to spread the damage vertically.

Thanks to the BLR-2C's torsotwist quirks, the difference is less than 3 degrees per second without Basics, and about 4 degrees per second after Eliting. I honestly don't know how many players can make use of the advantage, and I'd personally trade it for a tankier profile on the TBR (even if it would look less cool) in a heartbeat.

As for JJs, they're of minimal use for damage spreading at long range (unless you're looking to take advantage of broken animations or the like); the vertical displacement they offer is simply too small from the shooter's perspective to provide any serious challenge in tracking the target.

And I would seriously recommend taking another look at the structure quirks on the BLR-2C and do the math as to how much damage you have to put on it in order to drop it. For two pilots of equal skill, the BLR-2C is more survivable, as it should be, since you're investing an extra 10 tons when bringing one out.

Again, just because a build is listed in a Tier bracket, doesn't mean that it has an even chance of taking any other build in that tier bracket. It merely means that, for its weight and tech base, it's about as good as it's going to get.

Edited by habu86, 09 March 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Of course the Battlemaster is a better midrange hillpoker than the Timber, hillpoking is the one thing the Battlemaster is amazing at, how is that even a discussion?

That obviously doesn't mean the Battlemaster is a stronger mech, the Timber is amazing for so many other reasons. Faster, Clan XL, amazing diversity of viable builds, better brawler and flanker and so on.

[Luminis]

Rushin Roulette, on 08 March 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

If the meta changes

Yeah. If. If PGI decrease the heat dissipation and heat capacity of Clan DHS, the competitive advantage the top Clan 'Mechs have now might be going down the drain as well.

Your "investment" being more risky on the IS side (that's a downside of the quirk system, mostly) doesn't really change how capable the 'Mechs are at present.

/edit:
Besides, I don't quite see what to do about it. Are Clan Omnis supposed to be outclassed at everything they can do because they're able to do so many different things?

Edited by Luminis, 09 March 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

IS is plenty strong right now. They are often clunkier when you need to use a Standard and often using an XL feels gimped, but there are not just some but many many options.

There are still those same old underlying issues that are hard to weigh against a quirk but with the way quirks are right now a good deal of it is in a sense paved over.

Some IS players still somehow manage to sidestep whats remotely CW viable given a wide range of options. Players are also mistaking group v pug stomps for "IS cant compete". Some players also think this new high tonnage means bring two big assaults which is likely to backfire for someone new to CW.

[Rushin Roulette]

Thats the point. In each tier, the various mechs have advantages and disadvantages. It doesnt mean one mech is better than another.
The BLR will smash the DWF and the TBR if all mechs are hillpoking without moving much.
If the poking match requires fast relocations, then the BLR and DWF will lose to the TBR
If everyone is forced to stay in the open and trades blows while just moving and torso twisting at every ones ideal range, then the DWF will dominate the BLR and the TBR (as the prime targets here should always be the legs anyways).

Both the clan mechs in the lineup and the IS mechs in the lineup have their points, but not one of them is dominating. Its a rock/paper/scissor situation where you just want to play the mech you are using and force the enemies to fight on your terms.

[Widowmaker1981]

Rushin Roulette, on 09 March 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

Thats the point. In each tier, the various mechs have advantages and disadvantages. It doesnt mean one mech is better than another.
The BLR will smash the DWF and the TBR if all mechs are hillpoking without moving much.
If the poking match requires fast relocations, then the BLR and DWF will lose to the TBR
If everyone is forced to stay in the open and trades blows while just moving and torso twisting at every ones ideal range, then the DWF will dominate the BLR and the TBR (as the prime targets here should always be the legs anyways).

Both the clan mechs in the lineup and the IS mechs in the lineup have their points, but not one of them is dominating. Its a rock/paper/scissor situation where you just want to play the mech you are using and force the enemies to fight on your terms.

And that is somehow.. bad? Should the Clan mechs just have no situations where they can win? Sounds .. balanced to me at the moment (and feels pretty balanced, when ignoring the potato mechs from both sides)

[Crockdaddy]

Apollo777, on 28 February 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

Clan mechs are superior in any ways! so it seems to me just unfair fight and i dont understand why PGI do nothuing about it!!!
why not all players can use every available mechs in the game for CW?!!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not whining and i have nothing against clans or IS players, afterall we all play this game for fun!
I'm just asking from PGI, "why not everybody can bring any mechs available in the game to CW?"
Maybe clan players like to piloting IS mechs and IS players like to piloting clan mechs in CW!!! What's wrong whith that? let us have some fun!!!

Thx guys ;-)

I happen to lead one of the strongest IS units in the "CW" game. Our home is Kurita. We've been on a Ghost Bear tour for around 3 weeks now. I can tell you the game was generally easier running IS mechs than clan mechs. There are likely a few good reasons for that but I can say I felt more tactically flexible in mech choices with IS. I could do long range medium short ... dakka or laser vomit. The only thing I couldn't really do was PPC and god help me ... NEVER lurms.

I believe IS vs Clan mech is about as close to being balanced as I have ever seen it but on the whole, if I was fighting IS Meta vs Clan Meta I'd very likely choose IS Meta for myself and my team (situational of course).

[Chef Kerensky]

Ozealot, on 07 March 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

Burntimes, anyone?

Or: burntimes anyone not playing in Canada/North America?

Since we are talking about CW with servers there what about the 0.15-0.2 secs for european or even 0.35-0.4 secs for oceanic players shorter burntimes when being shot at by IS pulse laser alphas which makes torsotwisting nearly obsolete... That's about 33% and 66% less burntime and time to spread that current IS go-to 33 point alpha (with LPLAS alone) making them nearly as effective as PPFLD. How about adding more to their range but also increase their burntime to make a twisting reaction more possible/viable? Main problem imo but playing on Clan side for a long time now.

Inner Sphere pulse laser burn times are deadly but if you're not already twisted when the enemy is firing then you're making a mistake. The only time you should actually be staring at your opponent is when you're firing, or they're incapable of hurting you (if they're out of range, or sticked, or you have cover, etc.)

Not that you're always going to remember that in the heat of the moment, but it's a lot better than staring at an alpha and only twisting once you've already been shot.

[Luminis]

Ozealot, he's talking about PPCs, not ERLLas. And both IS and Clan PPC.

[Chef Kerensky]

Ozealot, on 09 March 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

First post ever from an NKVA member (among the ones I have read) that makes sense. Unusual but I like it, only reason I point that out.

Thing I was on about is that I can spread Clan Laser damage due to their long burn times in that situation you described (when it's "too late") but usually not that from IS Pulse Lasers. I would just like it more when that could be lowered a bit and instead IS tech gets a bit more range in trade. It's not that bad right now, but I like that gameplay element of torso twisting, that's all. It's just because of the ping/time lag, whatever, that I think that this is an issue for me. In matches on servers of the region I am from it's not that much noticable. Or maybe I'm just getting old, heh.

With all that said so far, did everyone read the twitter from Russ in the last days? He teased Clan ER Laser heat is reduced by one across the board... I'm curious what will be the repercussions for this... aside from increased forum activity. I'm actually not sure if I should like it, altough I gotta admit I almost exclusively played Clan Mechs in the last months.

https://twitter.com/...893811650170880

EDIT: added Twitter link, may include IS ER Laser, not sure

Personally I'd prefer the opposite: reduced clan range in exchange for slightly shorter burn times, but that's a matter of personal bias

[MischiefSC]

Kin3ticX, on 09 March 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

IS is plenty strong right now. They are often clunkier when you need to use a Standard and often using an XL feels gimped, but there are not just some but many many options.

There are still those same old underlying issues that are hard to weigh against a quirk but with the way quirks are right now a good deal of it is in a sense paved over.

Some IS players still somehow manage to sidestep whats remotely CW viable given a wide range of options. Players are also mistaking group v pug stomps for "IS cant compete". Some players also think this new high tonnage means bring two big assaults which is likely to backfire for someone new to CW.

Someone who knows the mechs and how to play can run two good assaults and pull ~1k in each, a BJ for 600+ and a 35 tonner for 400+. You just need to know when to run them and how to run them but an IS deck that's good for over 2K games isn't hard to put together.

The problem is that they're all going to run differently and be suited for a niche. 5xAC5 Mauler on Vitric is a stone cold killer. Especially on defense. Run that bad boy bins dry for over 1100 damage; if you're dying with ammo left in your Mauler in the right situation you're doing it wrong. There's half a dozen BLR laser builds that are just stellar - not talking ERLL poke-boats but LPL/ML/MPL boats that just carve stuff up are fast and run cool that should be top performers.

It's just important to understand a tonnage trade vs a mech trade. If you're in a 85 or 90 ton mech you need to be killing a TBR and a side torso off an EBJ/HBR *solo* just to 'break even'. You need to be posting 800-1K damage in your assaults and it needs to be worthwhile damage (doing 1k in an LRM boat on Boreal is still failing as maybe 1/2 that damage is directly useful). You need to be setting your lighter waves up for success.

For a new player running 4 heavies is probably smarter. Almost identical loadouts, similar performance profiles, you can run the same 'job' for 4 waves.

Side note -

Panther with 2LPLs. Mediocre in pub queue but I'll take it over a Raven 4X in CW. While it's not as good a hill-humper the Raven is just too fragile. PTN has a Wolfhounds hitboxes and while the lasers are low slung the structure AND armor quirks keep it in the fight way longer. The quirks are stellar and I find it good for 500+ damage on any map. There's too many situations where a brawling light just gets eaten. I've found it to be a stellar CW poking light.

[Crockdaddy]

Ozealot, on 09 March 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

First post ever from an NKVA member (among the ones I have read) that makes sense. Unusual but I like it, only reason I point that out.

Thing I was on about is that I can spread Clan Laser damage due to their long burn times in that situation you described (when it's "too late") but usually not that from IS Pulse Lasers. I would just like it more when that could be lowered a bit and instead IS tech gets a bit more range in trade. It's not that bad right now, but I like that gameplay element of torso twisting, that's all. It's just because of the ping/time lag, whatever, that I think that this is an issue for me. In matches on servers of the region I am from it's not that much noticable. Or maybe I'm just getting old, heh.

With all that said so far, did everyone read the twitter from Russ in the last days? He teased Clan ER Laser heat is reduced by one across the board... I'm curious what will be the repercussions for this... aside from increased forum activity. I'm actually not sure if I should like it, altough I gotta admit I almost exclusively played Clan Mechs in the last months.

https://twitter.com/...893811650170880

EDIT: added Twitter link, may include IS ER Laser, not sure

I'd like to see a reduction burn time by say .1 second would help clan ERLL quite a bit. One reason I like IS mechs is I can burst lasers more quickly then torso twist leveraging the structure buffs.

[B0oN]

Rushin, don´t you forget a few mechs ?

IS has so many viable options, I wont even really bother to start counting them, just play a bit in the group queue .
Clans ? Also has a bunch of viable options, but so many players know them quite well already, so they are less of a threat right now than they were, like, let´s say 3 months ago .

As Khereg stated : Balance is on a good way and WAY WAY WAY better than before, but still a way off, especially all those underperformers on both sides that could use a tender, loving hand .

I for one am really itching right now to get back to IS and drive my "EZ-mode" stuff

[AlphaToaster]

My unit recently switched to Kurita while on our Mech-Bay tour. I must say I missed my Black Knights a bit more than I realized. I was planning to play The Division for a bit this weekend, but the IS mechs are so fun right now and with the event happening, that's just free C-bills right there.

I forgot how damn nice the AC 5's are when paired with a couple PPCs and how fun the Atlai are now with SRM6/AC20 builds and all their structure buffs. I made a couple different drop decks to mess around with, including one with a Locust.

This weekend has a forecast of burning hot metal, and exploding mechs me thinks.

[Luminis]

Ozealot, on 09 March 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Ya, crap, I got it. Sorry for spreading rumors... omg, I'm out.

Haha, I actually like the idea of spreading that rumour! I wonder how many folks would run amok over it without even checking a source

[Graugger]

Aww look at all the IS pilots QQing about Clan mechs...

Get used to it whatever kills Paul in MWO matches GETS NERFED!

Bow before the nerfhammer of doom and let him slay you in battle.

Spoiler

Some poor IS pilots actually going to try this.

[smokefield]

mech and loadout wise the CW games seems pretty balanced now. But there is one major advantage that IS has - sustained dps at medium range and even long range. almost all IS mechs can outperfom in terms of dps any clan mech. clans run hotter and they need more time to do damage. If given time the clans will outdamage you in long run, but in aggressive pushes they will hurt a lot because of the heat. (that if they do not run dedicated brawl builds ...which will be murderous for any is mech charging )