41 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Greetings Mechwarriors. Today I have a simple question. Can any photoshop masters please show me what a Timber Wolf, a Black Knight, etc would look like if rescaled to be "perfect" for their weight. Bonus points if you could provide a "before and after" for compare and constrast AND what the Awesome might look like when rescaled.

[Lostdragon]

I doubt the TBR and BLK will change much in a rescale.

[zagibu]

Lostdragon, on 29 February 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

I doubt the TBR and BLK will change much in a rescale.

You are correct, they only deviate a few % from the current average surface area per ton. The Awesome would get a little bit smaller, but not much. It's problem is not so much oversize, but large torso hitboxes that can be hit from a wide range of angles. It actually needs a remodeling, a simple rescaling won't be enough.

[cazidin]

Alright. So, the changes to the Black Knight, Timber Wolf and Marauder will make a negligible difference. What about the Centurion, Trebuchet, Griffin and Quickdraw?

[SpiralFace]

cazidin, on 29 February 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Alright. So, the changes to the Black Knight, Timber Wolf and Marauder will make a negligible difference. What about the Centurion, Trebuchet, Griffin and Quickdraw?

Marauder is under scaled, (Its actually smaller then a Cent right now.) Don't hold out hope that it will stay that way, as they have already said that the re-scale means that some mechs will be shrunk, but others WILL increase in size to normalize the mechs across the spectrum.

All Mediums and small heavies are considered grossly over scaled, and can be expected to see probably the biggest "win's" out of this system.

The Cent, Treb, Griff, and QKD will all undoubtedly come down in scale, with some of the MAJOR offenders like the Treb, Cent, and QKD coming down more then others.

The only thing bad about the re-scale that I've heard so far is that we will have to wait till May at the earliest to see them in game. As not enough time for march patch, April seems to be purely dedicated to the Community Warfare overhaul.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Stop comparing Humanoid and Aircraft Torso/Chicken-Walker mechs solely by their front profile. Just stop...Stop it!

Humanoids will always be taller, but skinny and Aircraft type (Ebon Jaguar, Crab, Marauder, etc...) Will always be shorter, but really long (you know, like an aircraft fuselage).

Although I have no doubt that the Marauder might be a bit small, or a Centurion a bit large, compare them to their equivalents (humanoids to humanoids or aircraft torso to aircraft torso).

Comparing a torso design which BY DESIGN stacks it's internals upright for a narrow side profile at the cost of increased front exposure to a mech that positions it's internals horizontally for a short front profile, but huge side target, is wrong.

If you want to compare and adjust by volume, that is fine. But don't treat two completely different torso designs the same. The Aircraft style torso's height does not and should not conform to a humanoids height requirement because that is not how an Aircraft torso design works.

*sigh*

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 29 February 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[zagibu]

MeiSooHaityu, on 29 February 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Stop comparing Humanoid and Aircraft Torso/Chicken-Walker mechs solely by their front profile. Just stop...Stop it!

I don't do that. I made front and side profiles and added the pixels in my measurements. Of course, it's less precise than volume measurements, but actually, from a gameplay perspective, it's more relevant, because it's the exposed surface area that matters, not volume (although volume roughly correlates with surface area of course).

Anyway, I really hope they will reconsider their scaling and actually add gameplay considerations into the mix instead of just going by sheer volume, because otherwise this will happen:



Blue are the current scalings, and red are the adjusted scalings.

[zagibu]

cazidin, on 29 February 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Alright. So, the changes to the Black Knight, Timber Wolf and Marauder will make a negligible difference. What about the Centurion, Trebuchet, Griffin and Quickdraw?

Quickdraw will get much smaller, Centurion quite a bit smaller and the Trebuchet and Griffin a little smaller.

Edited by zagibu, 29 February 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

zagibu, on 29 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I don't do that. I made front and side profiles and added the pixels in my measurements. Of course, it's less precise than volume measurements, but actually, from a gameplay perspective, it's more relevant, because it's the exposed surface area that matters, not volume (although volume roughly correlates with surface area of course).

Anyway, I really hope they will reconsider their scaling and actually add gameplay considerations into the mix instead of just going by sheer volume, because otherwise this will happen:



Blue are the current scalings, and red are the adjusted scalings.

Why would you make the Spider so big? It's already practically useless.

[zagibu]

Kaeb Odellas, on 29 February 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Why would you make the Spider so big? It's already practically useless.

I wouldn't. It's how big it would be if it had the correct surface for its weight.

[Gamuray]

Kaeb Odellas, on 29 February 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Why would you make the Spider so big? It's already practically useless.

zagibu, on 29 February 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

I wouldn't. It's how big it would be if it had the correct surface for its weight.

He's right you know. If you compare any light mech to a mech 3-4 times it's weight, the light mech is FAR FAR smaller than a third/quarter size. Look at a commando. How many do you think will fit in that thar Atlas? I assure you, about twice as many as should.

Spider is the same way, it would have to be (a slight bit smaller) than that image in order to be half sized to a Cataphract, and that actual size to be right in relation to a rescaled catapult.

So do you want gameplay or correct scaling to come first? Because the latter will easily double/triple urbie size too.

[FupDup]

Kaeb Odellas, on 29 February 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

Why would you make the Spider so big? It's already practically useless.

Because "Normalization™" always turns out well in MWO history...

Edited by FupDup, 29 February 2016 - 01:53 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Gamuray, on 29 February 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

He's right you know. If you compare any light mech to a mech 3-4 times it's weight, the light mech is FAR FAR smaller than a third/quarter size. Look at a commando. How many do you think will fit in that thar Atlas? I assure you, about twice as many as should.

Spider is the same way, it would have to be (a slight bit smaller) than that image in order to be half sized to a Cataphract, and that actual size to be right in relation to a rescaled catapult.

So do you want gameplay or correct scaling to come first? Because the latter will easily double/triple urbie size too.

"Correct" scaling is such a weird thing to think about in this game here all of the scaling is massively out-of-whack. Every single one of our mechs are waaaaaay too big for their mass. Cannon calibers are way too big for the sizes of the shells they're firing. An LRM weighs only 11-12 pounds a piece, and yet are the size of an elementary school kid.

[Dawnstealer]

SpiralFace, on 29 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Marauder is under scaled, (Its actually smaller then a Cent right now.) Don't hold out hope that it will stay that way, as they have already said that the re-scale means that some mechs will be shrunk, but others WILL increase in size to normalize the mechs across the spectrum.

All Mediums and small heavies are considered grossly over scaled, and can be expected to see probably the biggest "win's" out of this system.

The Cent, Treb, Griff, and QKD will all undoubtedly come down in scale, with some of the MAJOR offenders like the Treb, Cent, and QKD coming down more then others.

The only thing bad about the re-scale that I've heard so far is that we will have to wait till May at the earliest to see them in game. As not enough time for march patch, April seems to be purely dedicated to the Community Warfare overhaul.

it makes sense it would take a while - in order to rescale, you have un-skin the thing, shrink it, plop in the new skeleton and re-skin it. Weighting all the vertices can take a little while, especially when it's plopped on top of the other models they're busting out. From what I understand, the model/animation team isn't that large.

[cazidin]

SpiralFace, on 29 February 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Marauder is under scaled, (Its actually smaller then a Cent right now.) Don't hold out hope that it will stay that way, as they have already said that the re-scale means that some mechs will be shrunk, but others WILL increase in size to normalize the mechs across the spectrum.

All Mediums and small heavies are considered grossly over scaled, and can be expected to see probably the biggest "win's" out of this system.

The Cent, Treb, Griff, and QKD will all undoubtedly come down in scale, with some of the MAJOR offenders like the Treb, Cent, and QKD coming down more then others.

The only thing bad about the re-scale that I've heard so far is that we will have to wait till May at the earliest to see them in game. As not enough time for march patch, April seems to be purely dedicated to the Community Warfare overhaul.

Absolutely right. I meant to ask if any photoshop experts could give a compare/contrast for these mechs if they were properly scaled. I'm curious of how significant of a difference it'll actually make.

zagibu, on 29 February 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

Quickdraw will get much smaller, Centurion quite a bit smaller and the Trebuchet and Griffin a little smaller.

But think of the Shadowhawks!

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Because "Normalization™" always turns out well in MWO history...

Yeah, just like dynamic geometry updates.

[SilentScreamer]

zagibu, on 29 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I don't do that. I made front and side profiles and added the pixels in my measurements. Of course, it's less precise than volume measurements, but actually, from a gameplay perspective, it's more relevant, because it's the exposed surface area that matters, not volume (although volume roughly correlates with surface area of course).

Anyway, I really hope they will reconsider their scaling and actually add gameplay considerations into the mix instead of just going by sheer volume, because otherwise this will happen:



Blue are the current scalings, and red are the adjusted scalings.

I love visuals like you have included Zagibu. But what petcantage of pixels did you add going from blue to red? Most people think incorrectly about the relationship between height and mass ( weight ) instead of the correct direct relationship of mass to volume.
I.E. if you double height, width and length, then mass increases to eight times the original.
Likewise, if you intend to halve the mass of an object, it will be appromiately three quarters of the original in height, width and depth.

Comparing a Spider to a Catapult is a bit unusual since they have different body styles. Spider-to-Quickdraw (humanoid to humanoid) or Locust-to-Catapult (chicken to chicken) would be a better example since the capalt tends to be "boxier" than the spider.

I am certain PGI's designers are aware of the relationship and choose to ADJUST it in order to balance gameplay. Call it artistic license. Or maybe mech technicians start building in large compartments of empty space as mechs get heavier?

Gamuray, on 29 February 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

He's right you know. If you compare any light mech to a mech 3-4 times it's weight, the light mech is FAR FAR smaller than a third/quarter size. Look at a commando. How many do you think will fit in that thar Atlas? I assure you, about twice as many as should.

Spider is the same way, it would have to be (a slight bit smaller) than that image in order to be half sized to a Cataphract, and that actual size to be right in relation to a rescaled catapult.

So do you want gameplay or correct scaling to come first? Because the latter will easily double/triple urbie size too.

When you say "half sized" regarding spider to cataphract, I hope you mean half Volume and not half Height. Half the height is not where a 30 ton humanoid should stand to a 70 ton (or 60 ton for that matter).
Add my vote for Gameplay please!

Edited by SilentScreamer, 29 February 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[Queen of England]

zagibu, on 29 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I don't do that. I made front and side profiles and added the pixels in my measurements. Of course, it's less precise than volume measurements, but actually, from a gameplay perspective, it's more relevant, because it's the exposed surface area that matters, not volume (although volume roughly correlates with surface area of course).

Anyway, I really hope they will reconsider their scaling and actually add gameplay considerations into the mix instead of just going by sheer volume, because otherwise this will happen:



Blue are the current scalings, and red are the adjusted scalings.

Have they said that they're going to give 'mechs accurate volume based on an assumption of consistent density? I assumed they were going to keep the continuum of neutronium light 'mechs to Styrofoam assaults and just make it more linear (so you didn't have issues like 55-ton 'mechs being much larger than 50-tonners, etc.)

[Bishop Steiner]

zagibu, on 29 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I don't do that. I made front and side profiles and added the pixels in my measurements. Of course, it's less precise than volume measurements, but actually, from a gameplay perspective, it's more relevant, because it's the exposed surface area that matters, not volume (although volume roughly correlates with surface area of course).

Anyway, I really hope they will reconsider their scaling and actually add gameplay considerations into the mix instead of just going by sheer volume, because otherwise this will happen:



Blue are the current scalings, and red are the adjusted scalings.

I believe he was referring to spiral face's assertions that the marauder was smaller than the Cent. Which may be true, comparing frontal profiles, but sure the heck ain't so when the side profile is considered.

It may indeed be undersized, but certainly not by that degree (and globally, when volumetrically compared, maybe not at all)

[Queen of England]

I was curious, so this is what consistently scaled 'mech's look like. The 25-ton 'mech is about 63% the height of the 100-ton 'mech.



For comparison, here's a 100-ton 'mech compared to a 25-ton 'mech of a similar shape with the current scaling. The 25-ton 'mech is about 55% of the height of the 100-ton 'mech.

Edited by Queen of England, 29 February 2016 - 03:50 PM.

[SilentScreamer]

Queen of England, on 29 February 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

I was curious, so this is what consistently scaled 'mech's look like. The 25-ton 'mech is about 63% the height of the 100-ton 'mech.

Looks great. Math seems on the spot too.