23 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lol, so I randomly thought it up....but to make Ghost heat actually work the way PGI wanted it to work, you dont trigger GH based on weapon types, IE: firing 6 PPCs or firing 2 LL or w/e, rather you make it based off the number of weapons fired, regardless of type.

IE: 1 weapon=0% Ghost heat
2 weapons=10% GH
3 weapons=25% GH
4 weapons=50% GH
5 weapons=75% GH
6 weapons=105% GH
7 weapons=150% GH

So, regardless of the type of weapon fired, firing large alphas triggers GH, with no way to avoid it. Ofc, the amount gained differs based on weapon combo. So firing a PPC+AC5 is like 11 heat +10% for the 2 weapons would make the shot 12.1 heat, which isnt so bad. Firing AC2s in banks of 4 would still not be that bad. 0.8x4 for 3.2 heat *50% more for 4.8 heat.

But if you used the 6 PPC stalker, that would be 60 heat*105% for 123 heat, likely instantly blowing you up.

Rather, if you chain fired your weapons, or kept the alphas 1-2 weapons per burst your heat would stay low, but if you did the lolphas like we do now, your heat would spike through the roof.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

So basically, screw lights, small/medium lasers, any AC not that is a 20? No thank you, this idea is still as bad as it was the first 30 times it was suggested once ghost heat got added.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 February 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[FupDup]

So what you're saying is that firing 4 Medium Lasers has a higher penalty than 3 PPCs?

That's kinda dumb...

Weapon type/damage (maybe range?) should be the factor used to determine the max alpha limit, not just the raw number of guns. Doing it this way poops on mechs like the Nova that often use lots of small/medium guns and rewards the use of the biggest guns.


If we're seriously going to keep Spooky Heat, a semi-salvageable idea might be to link together more weapon groups, particularly lasers (e.g. they always sync with each other because hitscan, no projectile speed differences).

Edited by FupDup, 29 February 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 February 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

So basically, screw lights, small/medium lasers, any AC not that is a 20? No thank you, this idea is still as bad as it was the first 30 times it was suggested once ghost heat got added.

Except it screws all weapons equally. Bigger weapons trigger more heat, so you fire less, allowing the smaller weapons to more closely match the bigger ones, since smaller weapons give less heat, allowing you to fire more with lesser penalty then the bigger ones.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

So what you're saying is that firing 4 Medium Lasers has a higher penalty than 3 PPCs?

That's kinda dumb...

Weapon type/damage (maybe range?) should be the factor used to determine the max alpha limit, not just the raw number of guns. Doing it this way poops on mechs like the Nova that often use lots of small/medium guns and rewards the use of the biggest guns.


If we're seriously going to keep Spooky Heat, a semi-salvageable idea might be to link together more weapon groups, particularly lasers (e.g. they always sync with each other because hitscan, no projectile speed differences).

It would be 4 ML for 30 heat vs 3 PPC for 37 heat. So, bigger penalty, but less heat. 20 dmg for 30 heat vs 30 dmg for 37 heat. The PPCs give more dmg, as they should, but also more heat. If you rapidly fired in shots of 2 ML vs 12 MLs all at once, like this game likes to do, then your heat is not nearly as jacked up. GH as it is now actually makes no sense, all it does is works only if you use the proper weapon system together, but if you chain a LPL, MPL and a LL together, no GH....but if you put 2 LPL together, suddenly GH.

OFc, those numbers I put up there is totally off the wall. BUt the general idea is Alphaing is heavily penalized, making it very much a last ditch effort, while the normal way to fire is in smaller, controlled shots.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Bigger weapons trigger more heat, so you fire less, allowing the smaller weapons to more closely match the bigger ones.

Actually this is false, look no further than the cLPL which is actually more efficient than cERMLs with the appropriate number of external DHS. This is also not the only one, AC2s are notoriously hotter than any other AC.

[FupDup]

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Except it screws all weapons equally. Bigger weapons trigger more heat, so you fire less, allowing the smaller weapons to more closely match the bigger ones, since smaller weapons give less heat, allowing you to fire more with lesser penalty then the bigger ones.

I don't think you understand your own proposal here.

If I fired 5 Small Lasers in your system, I get a 75% penalty. This represents 15 damage.

If I fired 3 Medium Lasers in your system, I get a 25% penalty. This also represents 15 damage.

I I fired 2 Large Pulse Lasers in your system, I get a 10% penalty. This represents 22 damage.


How exactly does that help the smaller guns "catch up" to the larger weapons? That looks like it gives the lowest penalty to using a small number of the highest-damage-per-shot guns.

Edited by FupDup, 29 February 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[sycocys]

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Except it screws all weapons equally. Bigger weapons trigger more heat, so you fire less, allowing the smaller weapons to more closely match the bigger ones, since smaller weapons give less heat, allowing you to fire more with lesser penalty then the bigger ones.

It still screws mechs that can't pile on 20 DHS far more than anything else. Really screws the mechs that can only equip 10 total with the engine.

And it still does jack to deal with people that will just skirt it by using macros to fire groups + chains that keep their heat under control - the same as they do with the current crappy ghost heat system.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

This idea is bad.

3 iLPLs would generate 33 damage for 26 heat.

4 iMLs would generate 20 damage for 24 heat.

Do you see how bad this is?

[LordNothing]

i say base penalties on dh/dt. higher value, more penalty.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

If I fired 5 Small Lasers in your system, I get a 75% penalty. This represents 15 damage.

If I fired 3 Medium Lasers in your system, I get a 25% penalty. This also represents 15 damage.

I I fired 2 Large Pulse Lasers in your system, I get a 10% penalty. This represents 22 damage.

That looks like it gives the lowest penalty to using a small number of the highest-damage-per-shot guns.

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 29 February 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

3 iLPLs would generate 33 damage for 26 heat.

4 iMLs would generate 20 damage for 24 heat.

Do you see how bad this is?

What I see is a system that prevents the boating of all weapons.

I also see a system that rewards actually using larger weapons on larger mechs, as opposed to cramming in half a dozen smaller weapons.... as it should be.

I also see a system that allows the large mechs to actually fight back with their larger weapons, while doing more damage with said weapons.... as it should be.

Under this system, smaller mechs would do less damage per heat....but be faster, and harder to hit.

Larger mechs would do more damage per heat and have more armor.... but be slower and impossible to miss.

As it should be.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 29 February 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Atlas Overlord, on 29 February 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

I also see a system that rewards actually using larger weapons on larger mechs, as opposed to cramming in half a dozen smaller weapons.... as it should be.

Under this system, smaller mechs would do less damage....but be faster, and harder to hit.

So how it is currently?

[Lugh]

*!#&% Ghost heat give me a fixed cap heat scale and True Dubs everywhere.

The actual penalties on the Heat Scale from TT will do fine. Especially the internal damage ones.

PGI has only the barest minimums of this in place at this time. I was doing the SHC(?) ShadowCat two Clan ER-PPCs this weekend for the lulz.

I only managed to pop my own head off once that entire team due to the internals damage.

And only 2 maybe 3 death by overheats all weekend.

Still managed to find the bug to launch myself 100s of meters into the air too... cute PGI .. Cute.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 29 February 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

This idea is bad.

3 iLPLs would generate 33 damage for 26 heat.

4 iMLs would generate 20 damage for 24 heat.

Do you see how bad this is?

Well, really, PGI has already buffed larger lasers to have less heat then damage, so, they could increase the heat on the larget lasers back up again.

And the numbers in my OP were just rough numbers to give an idea....playing with numbers is fun haha.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 29 February 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Pjwned]

LordKnightFandragon, on 29 February 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

Except it screws all weapons equally. Bigger weapons trigger more heat, so you fire less, allowing the smaller weapons to more closely match the bigger ones, since smaller weapons give less heat, allowing you to fire more with lesser penalty then the bigger ones.

It still screws mechs over (read: light mechs) unequally and it's a garbage idea.

The Atlas Overlord, on 29 February 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

What I see is a system that prevents the boating of all weapons.

I also see a system that rewards actually using larger weapons on larger mechs, as opposed to cramming in half a dozen smaller weapons.... as it should be.

I also see a system that allows the large mechs to actually fight back with their larger weapons, while doing more damage with said weapons.... as it should be.

Under this system, smaller mechs would do less damage per heat....but be faster, and harder to hit.

Larger mechs would do more damage per heat and have more armor.... but be slower and impossible to miss.

As it should be.

You are already rewarded properly in various ways for carrying bigger weapons in bigger mechs if you don't play like a garbage baddie scrub.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 February 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Mechteric]

No, because ghost heat is dumb. Stop trying to make it work.

BattleTech used heat as a way to balance weapons fire and the only reason why ghost heat is in this game is because the heat system isn't doing what it should be doing to balance that weapon fire. I am of course talking about penalties of riding with high heat, such as decreased movement, and decreased ability to aim. If both of these were in game, we'd probably see ghost heat go the way of the dodo.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 29 February 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[LordNothing]

im all for overheat sluggishness. it would put an end to the poke and alpha type gameplay, as retreat suddenly becomes more difficult.

[SkaerKrow]

This is just trading one flawed system for another. In fact, this is strictly inferior to the current implementation of Ghost Heat. The system is going away anyhow, we can stop trying to massage it.

[cazidin]

PGI is replacing Ghost Heat with Ghost Heat II:The Return of the Mysterious Phantom Menace from Krendor IV.

[LordKnightFandragon]

CapperDeluxe, on 29 February 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

No, because ghost heat is dumb. Stop trying to make it work.

BattleTech used heat as a way to balance weapons fire and the only reason why ghost heat is in this game is because the heat system isn't doing what it should be doing to balance that weapon fire. I am of course talking about penalties of riding with high heat, such as decreased movement, and decreased ability to aim. If both of these were in game, we'd probably see ghost heat go the way of the dodo.

I agree tht GH is a stupid *** idea as a whole, but making it apply to all weapons fired in a group over just X weapon type.

Right now, if you fire 2 PPC you get Gh, but if you fire 1 PPC and 1 ML, no GH cuz magic...

Rather my idea applies GH to all weapons equally, regardless of type. GH is a terrible idea in general though. Just reroll the entire heat scale, but meh, no one wants their alphas limited.