72 replies to this topic

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

STD400 + endo + ferro

11 SL + tc1

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Oh, you meant MASC. Derp.

MASC just increases agility by specific percentages per MASC rating, then. It's the "default" speed that is correlated with agility (e.g. take a 5/8 MP heavy and compare to a 5/8 MP medium, ignore quirks).

But is it, in PGI coding land? That's my question. I understand how MASC works in tabletop, but this isn't tabletop.

Here, MASC adds +30% max speed. It depends on how they calculate twist rates in MWO.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

But is it, in PGI coding land? That's my question. I understand how MASC works in tabletop, but this isn't tabletop.

Here, MASC adds +30% max speed. It depends on how they calculate twist rates in MWO.

I was talking about MWO's MASC, not TT's.

As per the MASC patch notes this month, it seems that only turning rate and accel/decell are affected by MASC. I was dorking in my Shadow Cat on the testing grounds earlier and it certainly didn't make me twist any faster...

Edited by FupDup, 29 February 2016 - 09:48 PM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

I was talking about MWO's MASC, not TT's.

Ok, but still: How do you KNOW the game is taking the base max speed to calculate agility? After all, when my Clan Mech loses a side torso and has it's max speed hacked down, it also loses twist rate. Noticably so.

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Ok, but still: How do you KNOW the game is taking the base max speed to calculate agility? After all, when my Clan Mech loses a side torso and has it's max speed hacked down, it also loses twist rate. Noticably so.

I ask, because this is the sort of thing that's almost always wonky in MWO.

See also: Fall damage+structure quirks, etc.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Ok, but still: How do you KNOW the game is taking the base max speed to calculate agility? After all, when my Clan Mech loses a side torso and has it's max speed hacked down, it also loses twist rate. Noticably so.

Well, I don't 100% know that, but what I do know is that base agility just-so-happens to coincide with base speed. Ergo, if two mechs have the same default speed, they have the same default agility.

If we take any two mechs that have a speed of 100 kph, for example, they will have identical agility even if they are of radically different tonnages (ignoring quirks). Without quirks, the 87 kph Cougar (35 tons) has equal agility as the 80-ton Gargoyle.

Clan XL penalties might be a hardcoded XML negative quirk of sorts, I haven't checked the engine XMLs for quite some time...

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 29 February 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

Well, I don't 100% know that, but what I do know is that base agility just-so-happens to coincide with base speed. Ergo, if two mechs have the same default speed, they have the same default agility.

If we take any two mechs that have a speed of 100 kph, for example, they will have identical agility even if they are of radically different tonnages (ignoring quirks). Without quirks, the 87 kph Cougar (35 tons) has equal agility as the 80-ton Gargoyle.

Clan XL penalties might be a hardcoded XML negative quirk of sorts, I haven't checked the engine XMLs for quite some time...

I've never seen the Clam penalties (just "sidesToDie"), and the MDF doesn't contain different agility, just agility modifiers (and the base speed of 16.2 Kph), along with the other base stats.
Example:

  <MovementTuningConfiguration MovementArchetype="Small" MaxMovementSpeed="16.2" TorsoTurnSpeedYaw="20" TorsoTurnSpeedPitch="11.25" ArmTurnSpeedYaw="45" ArmTurnSpeedPitch="45" TurnLerpLowRate="0.2" TurnLerpMidRate="0.15"

I'm not sure any of those important pieces of information are on our client side.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 29 February 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

I've never seen the Clam penalties (just "sidesToDie"), and the MDF doesn't contain different agility, just agility modifiers (and the base speed of 16.2 Kph), along with the other base stats.
Example:

  <MovementTuningConfiguration MovementArchetype="Small" MaxMovementSpeed="16.2" TorsoTurnSpeedYaw="20" TorsoTurnSpeedPitch="11.25" ArmTurnSpeedYaw="45" ArmTurnSpeedPitch="45" TurnLerpLowRate="0.2" TurnLerpMidRate="0.15"

I'm not sure any of those important pieces of information are on our client side.

so essentially, it's pretty much a coin toss.

I DO know clan mechs with destroyed side torsos twist slower. We don't have base twist rates stored, so they are clearly calculated (which makes sense in a game where you can swap engines).

Destroyed side torsos may have a twist penalty hardcoded, absolutely, but it may be an unintended side effect of reducing max speed as well.

I'm really, really curious about this now. I wonder.

If I where to take an Executioner, test twist rate with and without MASC, have someone destroy my right torso, test twist rate again, then activate MASC and try it a third time, what the results would be? I wonder how you'd do the twist testing?


I really wish we still had Karl Berg and his epic megathread.

Edited by Wintersdark, 29 February 2016 - 10:10 PM.

[Nauht]

Does it really matter though? I nean its as you said Winter, you won't be just torso twisting on the spot with MASC on. You'd be moving and turning... which is where speed comes into it and if you've positioned yourself right you should already be facing your target doing your strafing run.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 29 February 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

so essentially, it's pretty much a coin toss.

I DO know clan mechs with destroyed side torsos twist slower. We don't have base twist rates stored, so they are clearly calculated (which makes sense in a game where you can swap engines).

Destroyed side torsos may have a twist penalty hardcoded, absolutely, but it may be an unintended side effect of reducing max speed as well.

I'm really, really curious about this now. I wonder.

If I where to take an Executioner, test twist rate with and without MASC, have someone destroy my right torso, test twist rate again, then activate MASC and try it a third time, what the results would be? I wonder how you'd do the twist testing?


I really wish we still had Karl Berg and his epic megathread.

Test from one side to the other, time it.

Video preferably.


My gut is that ST loss is just a -20% modifier across the board, like a NegaQuirk.
Just as MASC is a buff to speed, turn speed and whatever exclusively.

The base calculation has them coincidently correlated.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 29 February 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Test from one side to the other, time it.

Video preferably.


My gut is that ST loss is just a -20% modifier across the board, like a NegaQuirk.
Just as MASC is a buff to speed, turn speed and whatever exclusively.

The base calculation has them coincidently correlated.

I'll try to do this tomorrow, no time now, need sleep. Will turn my settings way the heck down then, to push my fps as high as possible. I don't have software that'll let me get good times, but I'll post the video regardless.

I'm really very curious about this.

[Wintersdark]

Nauht, on 29 February 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Does it really matter though? I nean its as you said Winter, you won't be just torso twisting on the spot with MASC on. You'd be moving and turning... which is where speed comes into it and if you've positioned yourself right you should already be facing your target doing your strafing run.

It does. I don't care about it because of its impact on the Kodiak (as much as I love said Kodiak) because I'm not that vested in any one mechs performance.

What I AM vested in, however, is understanding every single aspect of how this game works. It really bothers me to not know something about it, and this is a trait that has caused me a great deal of grief over the years... Particularly as I'm like this with everything in life.

However, this has also allowed me to make better decisions in game. When you know exactly how something works, you can find ways to exploit that to your advantage.

This also applies to pretty much everything in life. Want to be a better driver? Learn how cars work, how the physics work.

It may not make me the best at things, but it really helps at least partially cover for my own crushing lack of actual skills

Edited by Wintersdark, 29 February 2016 - 10:51 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Rear Admiral Tier 6, on 29 February 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

STD400 + endo + ferro

11 SL + tc1

Why would you do that? Its a clan XL, so one ST lost isn't death.

[Nightshade24]

Saliddry, on 29 February 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

so the only version with ballistik left+right torso is type 3???? with louy 2 lasers per arms as only hardpoints of you dont want to run around with dual ac20 but use ac10 or so

putting the first clan heromech to be an dumb new modelled atlas?


so your fault PGI again no money from me

What do you call ALL of the kodiaks? most of them already behaves like an atlas.. [edit: can behave like an atlas]

Kodiak 1... Kodiak 2. (Atlas with jumpjets), Spirit bear (an Atlas S), etc...

Edited by Nightshade24, 29 February 2016 - 10:55 PM.

[Wintersdark]

MauttyKoray, on 29 February 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

what else is he going to do with all that tonnage.
Why would you do that? Its a clan XL, so one ST lost isn't death.

What else is he going to do with all that tonnage?

You can only fit so many dhs.

[Vossiewulf]

I bought all of them, not because I think it's teh awesome, but simply because will be fun to give them all a spin. They will have been online for many hours by the time I can give them a try, though. I don't have Atlases and I'm not stressed about the expense; I'm sure I'll get enough fun out of them to make it worth it to me, ymmv.

[Nauht]

Vossiewulf, on 29 February 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

I bought all of them, not because I think it's teh awesome, but simply because will be fun to give them all a spin. They will have been online for many hours by the time I can give them a try, though. I don't have Atlases and I'm not stressed about the expense; I'm sure I'll get enough fun out of them to make it worth it to me, ymmv.

I've driven nearly all the assaults and the thing that affirms that I'm a heavy MW is that I really don't like the lack of speed and mobility of assaults. At least with Spirit Bear going 90kph with MASC and over 60kph without.. well.. that's within heavy speed territory.

[CK16]

Being the Ghost Bear I am, I had to pick them all up asap! I can see a few serious builds. But some are going to allow for stupid insane ones. Not good insane.....Beef will probably make some rather silly builds (11PPC's)....he will entertain us I am sure lol.

I play heavy alot, but after the Shadowcat and Arctic Cheetahdropped I am enjoying and finding my self doing well in these chassis. I only own a few assualt mainly Exe's from wave 3. They are ok I do alright in the (stock B I do well in the most). I imagine the Kodiak will play simular but now have better pod space and tonnage to work with finally, packing massive punch. Also more armor!

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

MauttyKoray, on 29 February 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

Why would you do that? Its a clan XL, so one ST lost isn't death.

some people just want to see the world burn

[Widowmaker1981]

Saliddry, on 29 February 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

so the only version with ballistik left+right torso is type 3???? with louy 2 lasers per arms as only hardpoints of you dont want to run around with dual ac20 but use ac10 or so

putting the first clan heromech to be an dumb new modelled atlas?


so your fault PGI again no money from me

AHAHAHAHAHA

He thinks it would be better if it was an Omnimech.

Oh, learn to mechlab

Full customisation of engine size plus dynamic internal crit placement >>> omnipod swapping. Especially when there is a variant with 4B 4E already.

[Rhent]

I'm not really that concerned on the mech. It has similar hard points to the Atlas without the quirks. If it had numerous ballistic slots I'd be worried, but looking at the variants in Sarna, its looking like 2 ballistic slots will be max. It looks to have an abundance of energy slots with a limited amount of ballistic and missile slots.