16 replies to this topic

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Yes, this little piece of equpment. Clans got it in every part for free. IS supposed to pay 200k for each and spend half-ton for each. And all it gives you is halved damage should your ammo actually explode.
Trouble is, when that ton of Missiles/AC shells actually goes off, you are useless cripple, with damage halved or not. And, since we don't have actual repair costs, it's even more useless piece.

But, it's possible to fix the CASE problem should it's role being shifted. I see two ways to it.
1)Plain structure buff to any component with CASE installed. Minor work, easy to balance, boring but practical, still goes in an IS way of flexibility (It's still hits your tonnage and slot count).
2)Additional geometry. Harder to implement. Hard to balance. Lazy work on the mech may render CASE useless on chassis. But way more interesting.
ARMS: CASE adds extra plates on the arm, allowing for better torso protection
ST(XL): CASE adds another piece of geometry to arm-torso coupling, which is considered to be an arm.
ST (STD): CASE adds extra plates on respective torso part (For examples, look at Jagermechs) to help with protecting CT
CT(STD): CASE adds some minor plates which actually belong to arms, stay when arm is gone and follow the "stump" rules of damage transfer.
CT(XL): Requires to install TWO CASEs for the effect to work, same as CT(STD) except plates are gone when arms go off.

[D V Devnull]

Even if PGI didn't re-introduce repair costs, I've always felt CASE needed more use on IS Mechs. So I'm going to support this, because I'm a little sick of getting easily XL-checked out on the battlefield. Maybe the dual-CASE in the Side Torsos could even prevent an XL Engine from being totally destroyed when you lose a ST? You just lose some speed until the other ST or the Center Torso gets broken off too?

BTW, if they did ever re-introduce repair costs, it would ruin the game. New players aren't sitting there with billions of C-Bills on standby for when they get beat up.

~D. V. "CASE is overdue for doing more on IS Mechs." Devnull

[Khosumi]

So like, you want buff IS for the wrong reasons? Last time I checked, Clans are using omnimechs, not battlemechs, hence why we get case everywhere. Besides, IS already has tons of structural quirks.
Also, our mechs cost so much more and we can't remove case even if we wanted to. If I want to free up some tonnage, there is simply no way I can take them off. You'd think it'd only have pros, alas, no. The number of builds I could run but I can't because I have a 7 tons I can't move.

Edited by Ethak, 01 March 2016 - 10:56 PM.

[D V Devnull]

Ethak, on 01 March 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

So like, you want buff IS for the wrong reasons? Last time I checked, Clans are using omnimechs, not battlemechs, hence why we get case everywhere. Besides, IS already has tons of structural quirks.
Also, our mechs cost so much more and we can't remove case even if we wanted to. If I want to free up some tonnage, there is simply no way I can take them off. You'd think it'd only have pros, alas, no. The number of builds I could run but I can't because I have a 7 tons I can't move.

First off, CASE on Clan Mechs takes absolutely no weight! It doesn't even take any Criticals at all! And you're even allowed to have it on all the sections of your Clan Mechs, where Inner Sphere only gets to use it on the Side Torsos! Plus, oh geez, you even get to have it for free! If anything, it's overpowered on Clan Mechs right now as things stand.

Second, 7 tons? I think you're talking about 7 Crits, used either by Endo-Steel and/or Ferro-Fibrous. Those help provide more tonnage for your use.

Third, have you tried stripping down all the armor and such? I've found out all that protection takes a hell of a lot of weight on any Mech. Necessary, but annoying for tonnage management.

Fourth, the Engine itself on any Mech takes a hell of a lot of tonnage. Sadly, you can't dismount it on Clan Mechs in order to check what the base tonnage of the Mech is.

Which finally brings me to my point... CASE on an Inner Sphere Mech currently isn't even doing anything as things basically stand, except wasting tonnage. I've tried using it while having both Standard and XL Engines equipped, and still got killed by an ammo explosion either way, as if I hadn't put it in at all in the first damn place. PGI needs to have buffed Inner Sphere CASE already, enabled it to do more, and given people in the various Inner Sphere Mechs a fighting chance against you bloody Clanners!!! I'm having to do totally without it because it just isn't functioning right now!!!

~D. V. "I think the point's damn bloody clear already. Quit being a rude Clanner who harasses Inner Sphere folk!" Devnull




(p.s.: I had to keep myself from typing in all caps several times during this post. You made it really damn hard to avoid wanting to blast your ears clean off.)




[Edit by author for a missed thought.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 02 March 2016 - 01:31 PM.

[Khosumi]

D V Devnull, on 02 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

~D. V. "I think the point's damn bloody clear already. Quit being a rude Clanner who harasses Inner Sphere folk!" Devnull

D V Devnull, on 02 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

(p.s.: I had to keep myself from typing in all caps several times during this post. You made it really damn hard to avoid wanting to blast your ears clean off.)

What an oxymoron.

But aside from that, do you really think playing Clan is all that easy? Go ahead and play some CW as Clan. See how IS doesn't have too much structural quirks. Grass is always greener on the other side.

As far as I'm concerned, the only CASE buff for IS that would actually be needed is infact prevention of detonation of XL engine, even though CASE originally is for ammo. also I'm pretty sure CASE isn't what prevents the Clan XL to not detonate, since Clan CASE acts the very same as IS CASE.

[Firewuff]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding on what CASE does in the first place. it doesnt "halve the damage" from ammo explosions. it does the same as a table top. an ammo explosion will damage the componet its in, if there is excess damage it is applied to the next closes part towards the Torso. so an ammo explosion in the arm that does 50 point in an arm while only had 10 left will then do 40 points to the side torso. With CASE it doe Zero to the side torso.

Only equip it where you have ammo and when you think you really need it. the effect is not obvious but not nothing. It doesnt need a buff at all.

[Strength Damage Cliff Racer]

Firewuff, on 02 March 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding on what CASE does in the first place. it doesnt "halve the damage" from ammo explosions. it does the same as a table top. an ammo explosion will damage the componet its in, if there is excess damage it is applied to the next closes part towards the Torso. so an ammo explosion in the arm that does 50 point in an arm while only had 10 left will then do 40 points to the side torso. With CASE it doe Zero to the side torso.

Only equip it where you have ammo and when you think you really need it. the effect is not obvious but not nothing. It doesnt need a buff at all.

Except it really, really needs one. Because typical ammo bin explosion will knock you into oblivion, case or not. Not to mention it does jack if you ever go XL (And there are few mechs that justify standard engines to begin with! Even with staying power dropping for IS, free tonnage/Massive speed boost is too hard to ignore).

[Firewuff]

If you carry ammo in a side torso with an XL engine then you are an idiot. If you carry ammo in your arm and have CASE then an ammo explosion ONLY takes out your arm and nothing else. If you have a std engine and ammo in your aide toros same. You lose the side torso but no damage to the CT or engine. Understand it and then it wont be an issue

[Rushin Roulette]

Sooooo many terribad posts conserning case here it isnt even funny any more. Seriously guy... read up what you are posting about BEFORE you use that keyboard on the forums.

D V Devnull, on 01 March 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

So I'm going to support this, because I'm a little sick of getting easily XL-checked out on the battlefield. Maybe the dual-CASE in the Side Torsos could even prevent an XL Engine from being totally destroyed when you lose a ST?

Even if case did what you want it do do... how the heck would it even work? Case magically giving the mech with the XL engine an invisible 3 slot unhitable engine extension? The side torso is gone when it is destroyed. when it is gone, then everything in that torso is gone as well. If that side has 3 engine slots, then those 3 are gone as well. An XL engine with 3 destroyed sections is automatically also a completely destroyed engine.

Firewuff, on 07 March 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

If you carry ammo in your arm and have CASE then an ammo explosion ONLY takes out your arm and nothing else.

Wrong. Case only protects ammunition in that one section from spreading outwards. If you have ammo in the arm, it will still transfer the full 50% from your arm to your side torso after the arm has been destroyed (incl. your XL engine), because the ammo in that arm was not case protected (for IS mechs at least).

Putting a case on any IS-XL mech is a waste of space and weight, becauee it does not stop that side torso from being destroyed. It would only stop the ammo explosion damage transfering to the center torso after the XL side engine has already been destroyed.

[D V Devnull]

@Rushin Roulette -- What I'm asking is that, if an IS Mech with an XL Engine has Dual-CASE in a specific single ST, then it decreases the count towards Engine Loss by a single Crit. Slot if that specific ST is lost. The Mech would therefore be finally allowed to keep going, but the engine ends up slowed down in the same manner as a Clan Engine, that 20% power loss. Basically, there would still be a hard penalty, and you'd be on the edge of losing your Mech. But, the penalty would not be so heavy as early loss of the Mech, which at current unfortunately gives anyone in a Clan Mech an utterly blindsiding advantage over anyone with an IS Mech. Now obviously, if...

• The other ST on a Dual-CASE-Protected IS XL Engine, which has both sides protected that way, is lost after that point
  
• A Mech's ST that has an IS XL Engine, but without Dual-CASE-Protection, is lost regardless of anything else present on the Mech at any time
  
  or
  
• the CT happens to be lost at any time

...then the Mech and Engine should still be lost, as the Three Critical Limit will have been reached and/or exceeded. Put simply, like the Clans, the IS will only be allowed to lose two Critical Slots as well. Plus, there will still be an extra issue for IS Mech Pilots anyway, as they will also still have to consider the extra tradeoff in...

• Tonnage (1.0 Tons per Dual-CASE)
  
• Critical Slots (2 per Dual-CASE)
  
  and
  
• C-Bills paid (200,000 per Dual-CASE, 400,000 if done on both sides!)

...to build the Mech with the intended loadout. This might stop someone from trying to use both Ferro-Fibrous Armor and Endo-Steel Structure, simply because they wanted the XL Engine Protection. They might also land up not having so many weapons, and/or so much ammo for them. An IS Pilot will have even more to consider than they used to, which should reasonably balance things out versus the Clans. Ultimately, there will definitely be a hell of a lot less Mechs simply folding like paper too early from some noob's lucky shot, that's for sure.






~D. V. "If this happens, battles will be far more interesting." Devnull




[Edit by author to deal with a missing emote and awful formatting.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 07 March 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[VinJade]

The CASE system never actually protected a mech unless it was running L/STD engine as it destroys the entire section it is in but no damage is transferred to any other part of the mech.

thus the MWO CASE is actually working better then it should.

[D V Devnull]

VinJade, on 07 March 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

The CASE system never actually protected a mech unless it was running L/STD engine as it destroys the entire section it is in but no damage is transferred to any other part of the mech.

thus the MWO CASE is actually working better then it should.

Apparently, you missed something that I noted in a previous reply to this thread...

D V Devnull, on 02 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

CASE on an Inner Sphere Mech currently isn't even doing anything as things basically stand, except wasting tonnage. I've tried using it while having both Standard and XL Engines equipped, and still got killed by an ammo explosion either way, as if I hadn't put it in at all in the first damn place.

...and...

D V Devnull, on 02 March 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

I'm having to do totally without it because it just isn't functioning right now!!!

...so even if it isn't supposed to work at all for those of us on IS XL Engines, the fact that I've experienced it not work while on an IS Standard Engine literally means that PGI has failed to code it in properly. Now, add to that the fact that Clanners only partially lose speed until they've lost TWO Torso Sections, and then the Mech after that, and that's one hell of an overpowered blindside to IS Pilots. So it's way too far beyond time that PGI finally made CASE work, and buffed it so that it's appropriately balanced against Clans, preferably in a manner such as I've stated in my previous replies to this thread thus far. Probably might as well include the Opening Poster's ideas to some extent as well, since I'm sure PGI probably won't include the whole thing. That way, it still has a drawback to IS Pilots and forces them to make considerations in their loadouts, but it isn't totally useless like it happens to be right now, and isn't overpowered either.

~D. V. "Do I really need to say more?" Devnull

[VinJade]

oh sorry missed that part, the CASE works whenever I used it but I dropped it more for ammunition for my LRMs.

Edited by VinJade, 08 March 2016 - 11:06 AM.

[VitriolicViolet]

I think it would be a bad idea to have CASE protect XL's. It would result in ridiculously armed and tough IS mechs, imagine a King Crab with what would effectively be a clan XL? it would be laden with weapons. Currently in my experience IS is advantaged at brawling and clan at range, so unless your also advocating a buff to say, clan burn time or equivalent boost for its range, than all you've done is made IS better at what its good at while giving nothing to clan. They aren't that much better than IS at this point just different.

[D V Devnull]

Violet Vitriol Price, on 08 March 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

I think it would be a bad idea to have CASE protect XL's. It would result in ridiculously armed and tough IS mechs, imagine a King Crab with what would effectively be a clan XL? it would be laden with weapons. Currently in my experience IS is advantaged at brawling and clan at range, so unless your also advocating a buff to say, clan burn time or equivalent boost for its range, than all you've done is made IS better at what its good at while giving nothing to clan. They aren't that much better than IS at this point just different.

Apparently you haven't been reading this thread very well. Clans currently have a blindsiding advantage in that they can lose a ST with an XL Engine, and still keep fighting for longer even at a slight power loss. But if an IS Mech with an XL Engine in the ST is lost, it flatly can't because the required number of Criticals before XL Engine loss has already been reached.

Requirement of a Dual-CASE in order to protect an IS XL Engine is going to cost in Tonnage, Criticals, and C-BIlls. It won't be as possible as you think to be Weapon-laden, because space that the Weapons/Ammo/Equipment would need will be locked out if someone is attempting to protect their IS XL Engine. Even further, extra Tonnage, Criticals, and/or C-Bills can and will be lost if they're trying to also implement/disable things like Ferro-Fibrous/Endo-Steel Upgrades. Once again, as I've said before, IS Pilots will still have to deal with considerations and drawbacks on their Mechs that Clanners won't have to deal with.

Heck, have you even looked at the specs on the Clan IIC Mechs?!?!? If I remember right, they're all already CASE-protected on all their sections, and yet they're configurable the way IS Mechs are! But they aren't going to have to deal with any of the drawbacks that IS Pilots would have to deal with even if this idea was implemented!

Heck, all the Clan Mechs recently lost all of their negative quirks too, giving them a giant boost! Things have been flipped too far in favor of the Clans, and too far away from the Inner Sphere! Can I get a support now to this thread, seeing as all the issues are already covered?!?!? Remember, we're especially losing extra Critical Slots here, in order to protect an IS XL Engine, and that is effectively like making the XL Engine take up more slots in the Mech! That takes away from places to put other stuff!

~D. V. "My aim is only to give the Inner Sphere a little balance against the Clans, not to flip the tables over again." Devnull



(p.s.: Heck, don't forget that I've already encountered a situation where I didn't find the CASE working on an IS Mech with a Standard Engine!)



[Edit by author to include missed thoughts.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 08 March 2016 - 03:09 PM.

[VinJade]

Still CASE system should not protect the IS XL engine. the Clans have lighter/smaller XL engines for a reason, they are more advanced.

It's like bows & Arrows, we have lighter and some what smaller counterparts now then what was first created a long time ago.
The C XL is the same thing, they are better, and the CASE is actually built into the ammunition bins if I am remembering correctly.

the IS will get LFEs later on, slightly heaver than the XL but less crits like the Clans.

now iirc there is the CASE ii which is by far better than even the (C) CASE where it does not destroy the entire location.
Been a while since I used it.

however that said the IS already has more or less everything going for it thanks to the only set of factions with almost all quirks(mainly good ones) compared to the Clans which more or less has ether none or negative quirks and giving the IS machines even more of a leg up when they shouldn't even be that close to the Clans yet.

and no I no longer own any Clan mechs, I own a Stalker these days.

[Metus regem]

Rushin Roulette, on 07 March 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

Sooooo many terribad posts conserning case here it isnt even funny any more. Seriously guy... read up what you are posting about BEFORE you use that keyboard on the forums.


Even if case did what you want it do do... how the heck would it even work? Case magically giving the mech with the XL engine an invisible 3 slot unhitable engine extension? The side torso is gone when it is destroyed. when it is gone, then everything in that torso is gone as well. If that side has 3 engine slots, then those 3 are gone as well. An XL engine with 3 destroyed sections is automatically also a completely destroyed engine.


Wrong. Case only protects ammunition in that one section from spreading outwards. If you have ammo in the arm, it will still transfer the full 50% from your arm to your side torso after the arm has been destroyed (incl. your XL engine), because the ammo in that arm was not case protected (for IS mechs at least).

Putting a case on any IS-XL mech is a waste of space and weight, becauee it does not stop that side torso from being destroyed. It would only stop the ammo explosion damage transfering to the center torso after the XL side engine has already been destroyed.

Sort of... In Table Top, even having it for an XL Mech made sense, as it would protect your CT. In TT, if you lose the CT completely, that Mech cannot be salvaged. In a campaign game, that can be devastating, losing an Atlas because you didn't have CASE hurts!

But in MWO we don't have to worry about actually losing a Mech, so IS case is largely pointless.