78 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

Um, "Legit" players can hit what they are aiming at.

Have you played ANY FPS game in the last 15 years? CoD? Battlefield? Halo? Hell ArmA? Every single FPS game has a Shot Deviation mechanic governed by movement speed, direction, and overall stability. The good ol "Expanding" reticle.

Movement causes shot sway, knowing how to govern that sway, is part of the skill.

personally it just sounds like you're a huge fan of PPFLD and don't want that to go away Johnny.

And I'm not saying that overcoming the shot deviation gives you perfect aim either. But it DOES mean you'er more likely to hit your target, than miss in a given situation.

The point is, if you've played any of those other FPS games, and done even relatively decent, then you've already seen proof that shot deviation can be fair, and work, as well as overcome by highly skilled players.

Ontop of that, in a game that has match making as part of the balancing mechanics [attempting to ensure players of relatively equal skill + or - a tier are in the same game.] then you'll always have a relatively balanced game, unlike something like CoD or Battlefield that throws top level players in with the noobs.

Those games you mention are last gen trash for starters. The game in that video has corner lean and all sorts of stuff the games you mention cant dream of, seriously. 10X better game.

Second it usually takes 2 botters or 1 botter and a legit to beat me. Sometimes its like 3 vrs 1 to completely shut me down. So I know the score.

The score being cof and recoil does not help legit players at all. Recoil on one shot weapons is a different matter. Its when its chained that its a huge issue.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 03:20 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 03:12 AM, said:

That game had a huge budget and is next gen and was along the lines of GTA 5 sort of. Entirely shut down by botters. When I tried that game it had banned 4k players, at the moment its over 7k.

I could go on and on but cof and recoil is not a legit players friend and only helps to make cheating even more of an advantage.

If this could be avoided without any doubt then this discussion changes.

wow, really... you're big "counter argument" is: "Cheating sucks... if there was no cheating it would be fine."

Well, no SHxx Sherlock.



There will ALWAYS be cheaters in every game. That has literally 0 bearing on balance discussions.

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:20 AM, said:

wow, really... you're big "counter argument" is: "Cheating sucks... if there was no cheating it would be fine."

Well, no SHxx Sherlock.



There will ALWAYS be cheaters in every game. That has literally 0 bearing on balance discussions.

Your so funny. Cheating may be the single biggest balance factor across all games.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

Those games you mention are last gen trash for starters. The game in that video has corner lean and all sorts of stuff the games you mention cant dream of, seriously. 10X better game.

Second it usually takes 2 botters or 1 botter and a legit to beat me. Sometimes its like 3 vrs 1 to completely shut me down. So I know the score.

The score being cof and recoil does not help legit players at all. Recoil on one shot weapons is a different matter. Its when its chained that its a huge issue.

Let me break down each paragraph:
1) Last gen trash. Ok yeah not really when these games are still going strong. And it's not like MWO is any newer, hell MWO came out in open Beta a year after Battlefield 3, and before BF4... so TECHNICALLY, Battlefield 4, at least 3 CoD games, and at least 1 halo game, are NEWER GENERATION to Mechwarrior.

2)Aww, don't you have a high opinion of yourself. How do you know they are botters? Some people just have really good aim M8.

3) None of this made sense.

Care to try again?

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

Your so funny. Cheating may be the single biggest balance factor across all games.

Cheater's circumvent the system, without proper anti cheat software, nothing can be done about them.

So, let's try this again, balance must be focused on people that are playing the game "as per the normal rules" and you must ignore cheaters for balance discussion... Anti Cheat is an entirely different subject.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:11 AM, said:

Um, "Legit" players can hit what they are aiming at.

Have you played ANY FPS game in the last 15 years? CoD? Battlefield? Halo? Hell ArmA? Every single FPS game has a Shot Deviation mechanic governed by movement speed, direction, and overall stability. The good ol "Expanding" reticle.

Movement causes shot sway, knowing how to govern that sway, is part of the skill.

personally it just sounds like you're a huge fan of PPFLD and don't want that to go away Johnny.

And I'm not saying that overcoming the shot deviation gives you perfect aim either. But it DOES mean you'er more likely to hit your target, than miss in a given situation.

The point is, if you've played any of those other FPS games, and done even relatively decent, then you've already seen proof that shot deviation can be fair, and work, as well as overcome by highly skilled players.

Ontop of that, in a game that has match making as part of the balancing mechanics [attempting to ensure players of relatively equal skill + or - a tier are in the same game.] then you'll always have a relatively balanced game, unlike something like CoD or Battlefield that throws top level players in with the noobs.

in most of this games , the Firingrange is great, the Targets faster and smaller, with a Sniperifle ,you can make Headshooting in 1000m+ , the Targets not multiple Hitzones ,and the Dead is very very quick

By MWO the Firing Distance to the Targets is very short , and The Targets very Big...

in TT canyou with a bad Diceroll miss a Mech running 60kmh in 100m and you can nothing shooting of a singel 3m Hitzone by a still standing target in 30m... in reality it does not work, and in a FPS and not, unless you blacked out when aiming the cockpit

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Let me break down each paragraph:
1) Last gen trash. Ok yeah not really when these games are still going strong. And it's not like MWO is any newer, hell MWO came out in open Beta a year after Battlefield 3, and before BF4... so TECHNICALLY, Battlefield 4, at least 3 CoD games, and at least 1 halo game, are NEWER GENERATION to Mechwarrior.

2)Aww, don't you have a high opinion of yourself. How do you know they are botters? Some people just have really good aim M8.

3) None of this made sense.

Care to try again?



Cheater's circumvent the system, without proper anti cheat software, nothing can be done about them.

So, let's try this again, balance must be focused on people that are playing the game "as per the normal rules" and you must ignore cheaters for balance discussion... Anti Cheat is an entirely different subject.

Well at least this discussion has found the heart of the matter.

As it is in MechWarrior Online, because of the piloting aspect of the game and the nature of clean aiming, legit players have an excellent chance against botters especially those trying to hide the fact. For botters to outright win in MechWarrior Online they basically have to go full on rage hacker to do it. They get banned quick that way.

To get back to your point, cof and recoil will do absolutely nothing to address any issues at their core.

By the way who ever made that video on the last page is no friend to the hackers ruining that other game and is actually playing against other hackers to a large degree. What that video does do is make the situation clear. Also that is a single shot with recoil and cof........

Also I have never once used a hack or macro. Which is why I don't mind in the least chatting about them.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 03:48 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

Well at least this discussion has found the heart of the matter.

As it is in MechWarrior Online, because of the piloting aspect of the game and the nature of clean aiming, legit players have an excellent chance against botters especially those trying to hide the fact. For botters to outright win in MechWarrior Online they basically have to go full on rage hacker to do it. They get banned quick that way.

To get back to topic cof and recoil will do absolutely nothing to address any issues at their core.

You know what, no, it's not worth extending this argument any further.

You cannot divorce your argument from Anti Cheat. AC, and Balance, are two, entirely different things. And you clearly cannot understand that.

So enjoy your opinion, you can have it all you want.

[Surn]

Or ...actually ban players who use autoaim

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

You know what, no, it's not worth extending this argument any further.

You cannot divorce your argument from Anti Cheat. AC, and Balance, are two, entirely different things. And you clearly cannot understand that.

So enjoy your opinion, you can have it all you want.

Thanks I knew where the push for cof was coming from.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

MechregSurn, on 04 March 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

Or ...actually ban players who use autoaim

Exactly, Anti Cheat software is how you fix the cheater problem.

As I stated, Balance, IE game mechanics and weapons values, do nothing in any way to curb cheating, so it's an entirely different discussion.

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

Thanks I knew where the push for cof was coming from.

This is the last reply you will get from me Johnny, I just wanted you to know I've added you to my ignored list.

Also if you're accusing me of cheating, wow... just, wow. I don't even know what to say when I'm still sitting tier 3, and am one of the strongest Anti Cheat advocates you'll find here.

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

Exactly, Anti Cheat software is how you fix the cheater problem.

As I stated, Balance, IE game mechanics and weapons values, do nothing in any way to curb cheating, so it's an entirely different discussion.



This is the last reply you will get from me Johnny, I just wanted you to know I've added you to my ignored list.

Also if you're accusing me of cheating, wow... just, wow. I don't even know what to say when I'm still sitting tier 3, and am one of the strongest Anti Cheat advocates you'll find here.

No offense really.

I have been playing anther game for an hour or two in the last few months, but enough to see how its doing. Its also a next gen fps. They are having to ban like 10 a day or something like that, This isn't a small issue.

It has recoil with no cof, the bots I have fought completely remove it from the game. While the first game I mentioned is using two entirely independant anti cheats, this other game is using an entirely new anti cheat.

Point being game design is forced into being a part of this. And yes that really sucks.

Correction it is 202 accounts inside 7 days in February. Perma banned named and shamed. Still a huge problem. I would link it but that game has some potential and don't want to be advertising MechWarrior competition.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 04:09 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

So, you mean, completely remove all defensive and aiming skills from the game?

No, no thank you.

Torso twisting is your friend. Use it.

[Pjwned]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 02:44 AM, said:

This reply above is a direct quote from the Gauss charge argument.

"the gauss charge can be learned so well its like its not there."

"players are using macros to avoid even this, get rid of it"

"ya but its a balancing mechanic"

"how is it a balancing mechanic if it can be entirely avoided through practice or macros.(almost entirely macros)"

Point being add something that can not be avoided or made pointless... and yet still does its job for balance.

It can't be avoided through macros, stop saying this.

Practice also does not entirely overcome the gauss charge either, you still need to very much deal with first charging up the gauss rifle for 0.75 seconds (which means mission accomplished) and if you do well in spite of the gauss charge (which is not very hard by the way) then cool.

[Almond Brown]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 02:26 AM, said:

Armor is simple and work great and is always an interesting choice to balance in game, where to put the points. It works good and is fun as is.

Maybe Ferro Fibrous needs something. Not sure what.

In closed beta the first question I asked was in game and it was why I couldn't put more armor on my mech if I had the extra tonnage. Not sure if thats worth looking at.

Likely because of builds like a DW with an 80 pts alpha and 974 pts of Armor if that was allowed. Allowing for Mobile "Pill Boxes" would not likely make MWO any better by any stretch.

P.S. I suspect others could make some very powerful and hard to kill Mechs if left over weight could be applied directly to Armor, especially as Armor does not consume Slots...

[Johnny Z]

Pjwned, on 04 March 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

It can't be avoided through macros, stop saying this.

Practice also does not entirely overcome the gauss charge either, you still need to very much deal with first charging up the gauss rifle for 0.75 seconds (which means mission accomplished) and if you do well in spite of the gauss charge (which is not very hard by the way) then cool.

Yet again I will say this. With a macro the gauss charge up is a one stage mechanism, without a macro its a 3 stage mechanism....

Using a macro is no different than before the charge was added, minus an extremely easy to manage fire delay.....

How is this beyond understanding for the pro third party program crowd?

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

Yet again I will say this. With a macro the gauss charge up is a one stage mechanism, without a macro its a 3 stage mechanism....

Using a macro is no different than before the charge was added, minus an extremely easy to manage fire delay.....

How is this beyond understanding for the pro third party program crowd?

Can you abort that Macro click if the shot no longer exists, say at range...?

[Johnny Z]

Almond Brown, on 04 March 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

Can you abort that Macro click if the shot no longer exists, say at range...?

This doesn't even make sense. its well under a second. That's like asking if I can stop shooting my lasers once I fired them. Hold off until its all good, no mystery.

Compare this to hold, wait, release, isn't even close.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[-Vompo-]

The original suggestion here is ridiculous.
TTK low... Haha... I don't know how long a one on one fight should last according to these guys who want longer ttk.


On a less related note: Doesn't Arma series still use the same old system from original OFP where the reticle just jumps around the screen when you are moving. It's not cof and basically timing your shot just right allows you to hit where you want even when sprinting. (not sure if that has changed in the later versions of the series) It was meant as a more sim like where bullets don't fly into random directions but follow their trajectory.

[Widowmaker1981]

Ive explained this to Jonny before.

Hes either too dense to understand that the ability to cancel a shot is more important than not having to remember to let go of the fire button (which is incredibly easy) or hes being deliberately disingenuous.

JohnnyZ: Once again. The Gauss macro is a hindrance, and good players dont use it.

[Johnny Z]

Widowmaker1981, on 04 March 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

Ive explained this to Jonny before.

Hes either too dense to understand that the ability to cancel a shot is more important than not having to remember to let go of the fire button (which is incredibly easy) or hes being deliberately disingenuous.

JohnnyZ: Once again. The Gauss macro is a hindrance, and good players dont use it.

Good players wouldn't start charging their guass if theres no shot...... Your saying that being able to charge the gauss and not shoot is a good thing....it just doesn't make sense.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 07:15 AM.