105 replies to this topic

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

MRM40s... Loaded up to the max on an archer... Unless mrm40s have crazy ghost heat... Nothing will survive its onslaught!

Kind of like the quickdraws from pts that had like 10k cooldown or something crazy...

[Gyrok]

Queen of England, on 06 March 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

How would IS ER medium lasers change IS/Clan balance? The IS ER medium laser is a weapon that deals 5/7 the damage of the Clan laser at a shorter maximum range while generating the same heat at the same tonnage.

It generates less heat, for the same tonnage, and is 90% of the range of the CERML.

How does it not solve the need for range quirks?

You do not have 360m IS MLs now, even with range quirks and range5 modules...

[Rinkata Prime]

There is a list of weapons which are not in MWO yet. List ordered by year of avalability.
So, if you want ER small and medium lasers for IS get ready for weapons listed above.
And if you want X-Pulse Lasers... it'll be a different game... xD

Tell me if I miss something. And make sure I have not included Long Tom in this list, because PGI already rejected it.

Some of this weapons are hard to develop, such as ATM and MML. Ammo switch mechanic is not introduced in MWO yet.
And some weapons are very exotic, such as Bombast Laser, so they has no chance to make their way to MWO.
Some weapons are developed for clans early than for IS, so you can find something like this "3048 / 3059" where is 3048 is for Clan and 3059 is for IS tech (follow hints in tech column).

Name	Year	Tech
Arrow IV Artillery	2850 / 3044	Clan / IS
Laser AMS	3048 / 3059	Clan / IS
Rocket Launcher (10,15,20)	3050	IS
Sworm LRM	3053	IS
Caseless AC (2,5,10,20)	3055	IS
Light Gauss Rifle	3056	IS
Swarm-I LRM	3057	IS
Ultra AC (2,10)	3057	IS
ER Laser (small and medium)	3058	IS
LBX (2,5,20)	3058	IS
Medium Range Missile (MRM 10,20,30,40)	3058	IS
Streak SRM (4,6)	3058	IS
Chemical Laser (small, medium, large)	3059	Clan
Heavy Laser (small, medium, large)	3059	Clan
Heavy Machine Gun	3059 / 3068	Clan / IS
Hypervelocity AC (2,5,10)	3059	IS
Advanced Tactical Missile (ATM 3,6,9,12)	3060	Clan
Light Machine Gun	3060 / 3068	Clan / IS
Ultra AC (20)	3060	IS
Heavy Gauss Rifle	3061	IS
Rotary AC (2,5)	3062	Clan / IS
Bombast Laser	3064	IS
Cruise Missile (50,70,90,120)	3065	IS
Heavy PPC	3067	IS
Light PPC	3067	IS
Snub-Nose PPC*	3067	IS
Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle (20,30)	3068	Clan
Light AC (2,5)	3068	IS
Machine Gun Array	3068	Clan / IS
Multi-Missile Launcher (MML 3,5,7,9)	3068	IS
AP Gauss Rifle	3069	Clan
Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle (40)	3069	Clan
Plasma Cannon	3069	Clan
Variable Speed Pulse Laser (small, medium, large)	3070	IS
X-Pulse Laser (small, medum, large)	3078	IS

*Snub-Nose PPC first prototypes introduced in ~2783.

Edited by Rinkata Kimiku, 06 March 2016 - 11:01 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 06 March 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

IS gets:

LFEs Inferior to the Clam XL
Compact Heatsinks 3 tons for a TrueDub worth of dissipation...3 times the tonnage
Heavy/Light Gauss Light Gauss is absolute rubbish without significant changes, hGauss TBD
RACs Not Spheroid exclusive, lots of Dakka
MRMs Either rubbish or obsolete SRMs (as SRMs are MRMs)
Plasma Rifles A PPC that generates heat to target, and requires ammo?
Heavy Lasers Clam tech, no?
X-Pulse By Kerensky that heat, PGI will need to fudge the hell out of that, also pretty inferior to the cLPL
XXL engines ...well, that's different.
Omnimechs With locked, inferior cXLs and generally terrible Endo location, poor hardpoints, and some even worse off with fixed SHS
Streaks Outright inferior to the Clam options
UACs Generally mediocre, and inferior to the Clams before PGI fudging
LBXs 'nuff said

Yeah...nothing big in there at all...

[Queen of England]

Gyrok, on 06 March 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

It generates less heat, for the same tonnage, and is 90% of the range of the CERML.

How does it not solve the need for range quirks?

You do not have 360m IS MLs now, even with range quirks and range5 modules...

In TT, Clan ER medium laser is 7 damage for 5 heat with a maximum range of 450m; IS ER medium laser is 5 damage for 5 heat with a maximum range of 360m.

MWO Clan ER medium laser is 7 damage for 6 heat with an effective range of 405m, so you'd expect IS ER medium lasers to be 5 damage for 6 heat with a maximum range of ~320m.

Unless PGI doesn't base MWO IS ER medium lasers on the TT stats, they'll be much worse than Clan ER lasers.

[Queen of England]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

Also, a good chunk of those will probably never be seen in the game even with timeline fudging since they're not part of the normal BattleTech ruleset, e.g., X-Pulse lasers, compact heatsinks, XXL engines. XXL engines aren't IS-specific, either.

[Whatzituyah]

Gyrok, on 06 March 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

XXL engines

Who in the world would use a XXL Engine? Its got death writen all over it sure its light as light can get for engines but it constantly generates heat no matter what you do. I say XXL Engines should not be listed in MWO tech ever in its current table top format at least.

[El Bandito]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

IS gets:

LFEs Inferior to the Clam XL
Compact Heatsinks 3 tons for a TrueDub worth of dissipation...3 times the tonnage
Heavy/Light Gauss Light Gauss is absolute rubbish without significant changes, hGauss TBD
RACs Not Spheroid exclusive, lots of Dakka
MRMs Either rubbish or obsolete SRMs (as SRMs are MRMs)
Plasma Rifles A PPC that generates heat to target, and requires ammo?
Heavy Lasers Clam tech, no?
X-Pulse By Kerensky that heat, PGI will need to fudge the hell out of that, also pretty inferior to the cLPL
XXL engines ...well, that's different.
Omnimechs With locked, inferior cXLs and generally terrible Endo location, poor hardpoints, and some even worse off with fixed SHS
Streaks Outright inferior to the Clam options
UACs Generally mediocre, and inferior to the Clams before PGI fudging
LBXs 'nuff said

Yeah...nothing big in there at all...

Very true. Gyrok is just being Gyrok. I thought his post quality had improved a little, but nope.

Lemme just make it clear here. Lorewise, even at the onset of WoB Jihad at 3067, IS tech will still be inferior to Clan tech. PGI need to get down and dirty their hands and make them balanced from the get go. No 15 ton Gauss vs 12 ton Gauss that functions exactly the same BS. Only then will the quirkening subside.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 March 2016 - 01:35 AM.

[Homeskilit]

El Bandito, on 07 March 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

PGI need to get down and dirty their hands and make them balanced from the get go. No 15 ton Gauss vs 12 ton Gauss that functions exactly the same BS. Only then will the quirkening subside.

How that was even allowed to begin with is mind boggling (considering we have even teams). How that has remained for how ever many months since the Clans have been released is beyond comprehension. They seriously have no idea how to balance a game.

You can either give the IS Gauss something to compensate for being 3 tons (3 TONS!!!) and 1 crit larger or you can make them equal (oh noes the flavor!!!).

But leaving them so blatantly unbalanced for so long is pathetic

Edited by Homeskilit, 07 March 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[Gyrok]

El Bandito, on 07 March 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

Very true. Gyrok is just being Gyrok. I thought his post quality had improved a little, but nope.

Lemme just make it clear here. Lorewise, even at the onset of WoB Jihad at 3067, IS tech will still be inferior to Clan tech. PGI need to get down and dirty their hands and make them balanced from the get go. No 15 ton Gauss vs 12 ton Gauss that functions exactly the same BS. Only then will the quirkening subside.

McGral is just shitposting his own speculation.

Also, IS ML can be 360m in MWO, the CERML is only 405m...

[Graugger]

Wait you want to give the IS something nice... Ha ha ha... Wait you're being serious? Let me laugh harder. HA HA HA, no.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

LFEs are better than anything you have currently.

CHS could be a legit 2.0 truedub for 1.5T and one crit if done properly to balance in MWO...that would make 2 CHS worth 2 crits, 3 DHS and 3 tons. Not a bad trade at all to be honest...

Light Gauss could be amazing, Heavy Gauss could be devastating....

RACs are IS exclusive...even in 3145 they are not in production beyond experimental prototypes for clans.

MRMs are amazing...and give serious punch to a mid range missile fighter.

Plasma RIfle is AMAZING in TT (basically a better Gauss rifle for IS). The Clam Version is outright inferior....in every way...

I said heavy, meant the light Naval stuff, and then after I went back to look, that was only on specific units, most of which were light dropships...so never mind.

Every laser weapon in the game has had heat adjusted, most had it dialed back, except the very lightest lasers...why should XPLs be any different??

XXL engines and omnimechs, your critique is BS.

Streaks are not inferior to clam options at all.

UACs would be outright superior to clam options unless the single projectile UAC5 mechanic is going away...

LBXs would be options that weigh less than STD IS ACs.

You know...your conjecture not withstanding at all. Since you do not design games for a living, I am going to go ahead and say what I have been thinking for a while. You know **** about balancing games...and it shows in your biased conjecture that assumes nothing will ever change from TT...when this game is already so far from TT stats already.

It would be easily done to make a few minor changes, keep mostly the same base stats...and make it quite competitive for both tech lines...

Or you can keep shitposting and talking about how IS tech never improves, when it clearly does...

Edited by Gyrok, 07 March 2016 - 08:09 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

LFEs are better than anything you have currently.

That is power creep, thus not really a solution to balance, but a bandaid.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

CHS could be a legit 2.0 truedub for 1.5T and one crit if done properly to balance in MWO...that would make 2 CHS worth 2 crits, 3 DHS and 3 tons. Not a bad trade at all to be honest...

It is a legit truedub for 3 tons, not 1.5 tons, we have had this discussion before. Compact Heat Sinks are worthless.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Light Gauss could be amazing, Heavy Gauss could be devastating....

Keyword being could, Heavy Gauss would be a bit sad with the damage decay though.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

RACs are IS exclusive...even in 3145 they are not in production beyond experimental prototypes for clans.

You may want to double check your numbers, because I'm pretty sure they are past experimental prototypes before the end of the Jihad.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

MRMs are amazing...and give serious punch to a mid range missile fighter.

They would have to go faster than SRMs to be remotely useful at mid-range, that or have lock-on which I doubt will be the case. McGral is right, they will probably compete with SRMs for brawling.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Plasma RIfle is AMAZING in TT (basically a better Gauss rifle for IS). The Clam Version is outright inferior....in every way...

Ummmm, wat. The Plasma Rifle is not a better Gauss Rifle, the Heavy PPC is the closest Gauss Rifle counterpart and even it is short in the range department. It is a PPC with ammo, slightly less range, and adds heat to target, that's it. It would be neat, but considering how look it took for flamers to be useful, probably outright inferior for 2 years next to the PPC.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Every laser weapon in the game has had heat adjusted, most had it dialed back, except the very lightest lasers...why should XPLs be any different??

They probably would, but keep in mind these are the IS version of ER Pulse. As it stands currently, they would probably only match the range of the Clan's standard pulse ranges. They could be nice but doubtful.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

Streaks are not inferior to clam options at all.

1.5x the tonnage with what advantages?

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

UACs would be outright superior to clam options unless the single projectile UAC5 mechanic is going away...

The UAC10 would be nice, but the 20 would probably hit ghost heat on every double tap which limits its usefulness. Not to mention the tonnage requirement and slow velocity. Not saying it wouldn't be a complete upgrade of the AC20, but even the AC20 is somewhat lackluster these days.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

LBXs would be options that weigh less than STD IS ACs.

Wouldn't change the fact they would suck, just like the LBX10 vs the AC10.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

XXL engines and omnimechs, your critique is BS.

First, Clans develop XXL engines as well, and second, with the omnimech construction rules, several IS omnimechs are gimped on Mist Lynx levels, some like the Strider and Owens are even locked into SHS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 07 March 2016 - 08:36 AM.

[Lugh]

MauttyKoray, on 06 March 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

I feel like adding these would bring some better balance to the game (and stop the crying of the gap between IS standard and Clan ERs) even though they're technically out of the timeline. Its not a new type of weapon or some huge power gap and I think they would go a long way towards making a better balance situation.

Hey guys Great IDEA.

Let's take the LAST advantage the Clan mechs possess. And Remove it totally, so they can cry while the IS engages them with impunity at all ranges with lower heat, faster cycle times and sameish dps.

Yeah let's do that right now!

[Mcgral18]

Whatzituyah, on 07 March 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

Who in the world would use a XXL Engine? Its got death writen all over it sure its light as light can get for engines but it constantly generates heat no matter what you do. I say XXL Engines should not be listed in MWO tech ever in its current table top format at least.

In MWO, it would perform the same way as an isXL due to the whole 'sidesToDie' ordeal.
Light mechs could make use, but heavier thing may pine for Crit Slots.

Gyrok, on 07 March 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

LFEs are better than anything you have currently.

CHS could be a legit 2.0 truedub for 1.5T and one crit if done properly to balance in MWO...that would make 2 CHS worth 2 crits, 3 DHS and 3 tons. Not a bad trade at all to be honest...

Light Gauss could be amazing, Heavy Gauss could be devastating....

RACs are IS exclusive...even in 3145 they are not in production beyond experimental prototypes for clans.

MRMs are amazing...and give serious punch to a mid range missile fighter.

Plasma RIfle is AMAZING in TT (basically a better Gauss rifle for IS). The Clam Version is outright inferior....in every way...

I said heavy, meant the light Naval stuff, and then after I went back to look, that was only on specific units, most of which were light dropships...so never mind.

Every laser weapon in the game has had heat adjusted, most had it dialed back, except the very lightest lasers...why should XPLs be any different??

XXL engines and omnimechs, your critique is BS.

Streaks are not inferior to clam options at all.

UACs would be outright superior to clam options unless the single projectile UAC5 mechanic is going away...

LBXs would be options that weigh less than STD IS ACs.

You know...your conjecture not withstanding at all. Since you do not design games for a living, I am going to go ahead and say what I have been thinking for a while. You know **** about balancing games...and it shows in your biased conjecture that assumes nothing will ever change from TT...when this game is already so far from TT stats already.

It would be easily done to make a few minor changes, keep mostly the same base stats...and make it quite competitive for both tech lines...

Or you can keep shitposting and talking about how IS tech never improves, when it clearly does...

Stop shitposting Gyrok, get your information straight.
Compact Heatsinks are 1.5 tons each, and a half Crit slot each, while dissipating a single point of heat per turn.

Sure, you can fit 20 in a 250+ engine but that costs you 10 tons for the same dissipation as 10 TrueDubs...which would cost you 0 tons and 0 Crit Slots.

LFEs are still outright inferior to cXLs, at 75% weight savings VS 50%.

I can't see an 8 damage 12 ton weapon with a charge being worthwhile. hGauss has that significant damage falloff...which equated to something to the tune of a 300M range with 3x drop off, no? I'd need to Math that out again.

RACs are smaller for IS, but Clams have their own at the same tonnage.

How do you expect MRMs to be amazing? Likely sub 300M/s, with extreme spread or volley fire.
They will function like slower SRMs with even more spread. How else will PGI implement them?

A 10 heat Gauss Rifle does not a Plasma Rifle make. Good for the tonnage, more akin to a extra heat instead of extra spread damage cERPPC which requires ammo.

Because the XPLs infringe on a few categories. Normal laser range for Pulse durations and ridiculous heat? Less heat but outright better than normal lasers? Fudge those details up


You refutal is rubbish for isOmnis.

How would you make the isStreaks not absolutely inferior to the lighter Clam options? Shorter cooldown? Lel

You may want to double check the isLBX resources...IIRC they are identical weight aside from the LB10x
UACs, however, are not the same weight and will most certainly not be fully PP FLD. Was the isUAC10 13 or 14 tons? Compared to 10, it had damn well perform better.


You know about designing games!? Oh, how I wish I had my gifs available...in place:
lolololol

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 07 March 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

lolololol

Mcgral18, on 07 March 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I can't see an 8 damage 12 ton weapon with a charge being worthwhile.

For the Light Goose Waffle in particular, I think it would be fair for it to not have any charge-up. The main reason for charging up the normal Goose is that it does a whopping 15 damage at great range for no heat.

The Light Goose also has range and no heat, but it does only half the damage so I don't think it would turn out OP without a charge.

It would probably be pretty nice without charge, but I doubt OP.

Edited by FupDup, 07 March 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 07 March 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

For the Light Goose Waffle in particular, I think it would be fair for it to not have any charge-up. The main reason for charging up the normal Goose is that it does a whopping 15 damage at great range for no heat.

The Light Goose also has range and no heat, but it does only half the damage so I think it wouldn't be OP without a charge.

It would probably be pretty nice without charge, but I doubt OP.

That's the gif

Though, now you need to compare it to the other 12 ton weapon: the AC10

Similar very large cooldown to the Gauss? How many Crits is it anyway?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 07 March 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

For the Light Goose Waffle in particular, I think it would be fair for it to not have any charge-up. The main reason for charging up the normal Goose is that it does a whopping 15 damage at great range for no heat.

It would be nice if they followed in the foot-steps of MW4 and boosted the damage (LGR did 2/3 of the damage of the normal Gauss) to around 10 or maybe more since it also had a significant range advantage in MW4 (on top of a faster recycle time).

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 07 March 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

That's the gif

Though, now you need to compare it to the other 12 ton weapon: the AC10

Similar very large cooldown to the Gauss? How many Crits is it anyway?

I think that the LG would probably be more desired than the AC/10 due to velocity and range, outside of a few specific AC/10 enthusiasts...

The cooldown probably should be a bit shorter than normal Goose, but also longer than AC/10. I'm leaning towards 4.0 or 4.5 seconds?

It takes up 5 slots.

Edited by FupDup, 07 March 2016 - 11:32 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 07 March 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

How many Crits is it anyway?

5