58 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

The map sizes and current objectives just don't support the concept.

I dont believe thats true at all.

for example forest colony is a pretty big map... but only a small fraction of the map ever gets used in the current gamemodes.

the current gamemodes dont encourage players to make use of the entire map. thats one of the flaws of onelife gamemodes is that everyone always plays exactly the same because theyre too afraid to take risks and try new things because it might result in them dying. fear of permadeath has lead to stagnating tactics.

I think respawns could definitely work on a forest colony sized map if the objectives were spread out to make use of the ENTIRE map. plus theres no reason it has to be 12v12 it could be 8v8 with respawns too.

Quote

With re-spawns you are just asking for Alpha warrior online. Direstars anyone? I could just build mechs for massive alphas, no armor or heat-mitigation, mash override and alpha's for all. If I want to come back from the dead I rather play CW.

Its called ticket based respawns. When you die your team loses tickets equal to the tonnage of your mech. So a 100 ton mech is worth three times more tickets than a 35 ton mech. Light mechs would have a stronger role in the game simply by costing less than heavier mechs.

Also consider that when you respawn in a direwolf it takes a much longer time to walk back to the front. Most people will not want to respawn in mechs that slow for obvious reasons.

Edited by Khobai, 08 March 2016 - 04:34 PM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Just be like everyone else and push PGI for the next mech you want released and continue to play the same limited gameplay and be happy with it. Am I doing it right white knights?

[WazOfOz]

I would like to see the whole respawn system overhauled before I would accept it in any game mode new or old i.e. respawns are not dropped onto static points on the map, but rather onto team leader or lance. spawn killing would still be a thing, but hopefully less prevalent

[Impyrium]

W A R K H A N, on 08 March 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

With re-spawns you are just asking for Alpha warrior online. Direstars anyone? I could just build mechs for massive alphas, no armor or heat-mitigation, mash override and alpha's for all. If I want to come back from the dead I rather play CW.

I don't believe this would be the case.

A lot of people are so used to the idea that the objective is purely to kill other mechs that they struggle to think outside of the box. If you played as you said, you would likely lose the match. Take a point-capture style game mode- if you're built around a huge alpha and absolutely no armour, you're not going to be much help when it comes to actually capturing and defending points. Killing other mechs won't necessarily help you in the game if you can't compete for map objectives. You'll just be taken out and then be out of the game for 30+ seconds.

[Thunder Child]

I actually am starting to like the sound of the Respawn Ticket system, but I do not believe it should rely entirely on a Team Counter. Otherwise, you'll get muppets that drop in DireStars, Alpha themselves to death, use up all the team tickets, and wipe the game.

My counter-proposal is that each player gets Tickets based on their in game performance, and the team performance. NOT JUST KILLS! Let's just be clear on that.
Each player would have a Dropdeck that they have assembled before the match. The currently chosen mech would go on Cooldown for one minute after it has been destroyed.
The Ticket cost of your "respawns" would be (as an idea) the tonnage cost of the mech you wish to drop in.
So, run 4 lights, you've got a lot of options for cheap drops, but you might struggle to earn tickets.
Killing a mech could earn, say, 10 Tickets.
Capturing a Point could be worth 5 per Tick (a Tick being, say, 5 secs).
Defending a Point from capture could be worth 10 per Tick.
Dealing damage to someone trying to Capture could be worth 10 per 50 Damage (or something).
Additionally, each player would get 10 Tickets per 60 seconds that they own or control a location, so if your team owns all 5 Conquest points, you'd be getting 50 Tickets per Minute.

This last one would allow people who are ticketed out to still be able to spawn back in at a later point.

Just something I've been considering. Feel free to pick holes in it (It was as close to MW:LL as I could see MWO getting without a complete rebuild).

[Xmith]

Keep it simple.

1 mech, 3 drops

20 minute match

Drop deck, 2 mechs 2 drops

Edited by Xmith, 08 March 2016 - 05:24 PM.

[Quaamik]

We already have re-spawns. Its called community warfare.

You want to expand the PuG matches to more objective oriented gameplay with re-spawning? use the same mechanic. Drop ships and a "stable" of mechs on board.
- Make it 2 mechs, with a 125 or 130 ton limit (enough to take a 100 tonner and a light in either Clan or IS).
- Require both mechs to be IS, or both Clan.
- Make it a game mode you can "opt in to", so new players are not stuck trying to figure out 2 mechs at once.
- Lock your drop ship mechs before voting on the map.

You could even fit it in as mini version of CW. Like a raid, using the PuG maps on either assault or conquest.

[Khobai]

Quote

we already have re-spawns. Its called community warfare.

CW still has limited lives and permadeath though. And you still win it mostly by killing the enemy team. CW is just an extended variation of skirmish.

What we want is entirely different.

Quote

Make it 2 mechs

how is that an improvement over just playing two one-life games? the easiest way to win is still by killing the other team. Having 2 lives instead of 1 doesnt fundamentally change any aspects of the game.

it completely misses the point of having a ticket based respawn mechanic which is to emphasize completing a strategic objective over killing the enemy team. The point of a ticket based respawn mechanic is to make it so winning is not based entirely on which team gets the most kills, but rather which team completes the objective.

As I said above, even CW fails to do that, since CW still has fairly limited lives and permadeath, and mostly ends up being attrition to run the other team out of lives, because thats the easiest way to guarantee success while also getting the biggest rewards (as opposed to just rushing the objective which gives crap for rewards).

Edited by Khobai, 08 March 2016 - 06:02 PM.

[Brewmen]

This game most definitely should have a new warfare mode on a global map with re-spawns. I would like to see something similar to ESO's PVP but instead of 3 factions it would be all the clans and IS factions fighting to expand their territories. If done right it could be really cool. More variety I would welcome, hoping the next CW update makes that part of the game much better.

[Malleus011]

You're right that MWO has departed a long way from Battletech. Sadly, they haven't even made those sacrifices to make a fun game, just a poor one.

The only way to make respawn palatable to the Battletech players - the ones who play and spend on the game because of what little Battletech is left in it - is to tie it to the CW map. Have losses affect your faction; losing 'mechs hurts your side, losing powerful 'mechs hurt your side more.

Of course, that would also require a mechanism to encourage players to use less costly light and medium 'mechs. This raises issues like R&R, tactics and strategy, all things distasteful to the 'click to win' crowd.

MWO would've been best positioned as 'A Solaris VII game' not 'A Battletech game' - full customization, maxed out tech, and respawns don't really matter there.

[Hillslam]

Screw tweaking the quick play or CW deathmatch arena blahblah blah over and over ad nauseum


Add mission based Co-Op PvE.

Add MEAT to this game. Stop chasing esports.

[MischiefSC]

Respawn eliminates risk and as such devalues reward. I get the appeal - no risk, minimal reward value, it's an even more casual experience and if you're in it for the casual big stompy robots that is a good thing.

The problem is bigger segregation of population. Playing bad teaches you to be bad. It's why being great at CoD doesn't help you in Arma 3. So people who like the Super casual respawn environment won't do as well in regular play, promoting their staying in respawn.

Population issues, etc. You can't mix that sort of gameplay with regular play as it's differing skillsets and many of us would leave if we were going to end up having to play in that style. So you've got a queue split or a population decline.

Could PGI make up the population by going ultra casual respawn MWO? I dunno. I would say the response to these threads is a reasonable indication of how many would leave over it. If the result is a queue split then the net result is reduced population to play with, which is the opposite of what PGI would want.

As such I see no value in it.

[Anjian]

Thunder Child, on 08 March 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

I actually am starting to like the sound of the Respawn Ticket system, but I do not believe it should rely entirely on a Team Counter. Otherwise, you'll get muppets that drop in DireStars, Alpha themselves to death, use up all the team tickets, and wipe the game.

My counter-proposal is that each player gets Tickets based on their in game performance, and the team performance. NOT JUST KILLS! Let's just be clear on that.
Each player would have a Dropdeck that they have assembled before the match. The currently chosen mech would go on Cooldown for one minute after it has been destroyed.
The Ticket cost of your "respawns" would be (as an idea) the tonnage cost of the mech you wish to drop in.
So, run 4 lights, you've got a lot of options for cheap drops, but you might struggle to earn tickets.
Killing a mech could earn, say, 10 Tickets.
Capturing a Point could be worth 5 per Tick (a Tick being, say, 5 secs).
Defending a Point from capture could be worth 10 per Tick.
Dealing damage to someone trying to Capture could be worth 10 per 50 Damage (or something).
Additionally, each player would get 10 Tickets per 60 seconds that they own or control a location, so if your team owns all 5 Conquest points, you'd be getting 50 Tickets per Minute.

This last one would allow people who are ticketed out to still be able to spawn back in at a later point.

Just something I've been considering. Feel free to pick holes in it (It was as close to MW:LL as I could see MWO getting without a complete rebuild).

System you are describing is used on Battlefield and War Thunder Realistic Battles mode. Tickets are earned by kills, damage, assistance, spotting, capturing and defending objectives.

Starting with a heavier tank will cost you more tickets initially, which means less tickets to buy your respawn, or not enough tickets so you won't respawn at all if you die too soon. Less tickets to buy respawn means you have to buy a lighter tank.

So the tickets you leave after your first mech or earn during the game will determine what tonnage you can respawn in your mech. You can save tonnage at the start or go all out.

Note that in WT, a captured area can be rezoned into a respawn area, allowing the respawns to immediately reinforce a "hot" area. This mode is called "Break".

Edited by Anjian, 08 March 2016 - 07:08 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Personally, I just want quick play to somehow have an impact on something. I'm going to age myself here but there was a game that I played a long time ago entitled "Dark Age of Camelot". It had 3 realms and various arch types but the one thing that really separated that game from others is that PvP was the central theme. Each realm had 4 frontiers, all linked with the other 2 realm's frontiers. Each frontier had a few keeps with 2 very heavy and nasty keeps that held powerful relics. If one realm took an opposing realm's relic, they got a small bonus in gold (from quests and killing monsters) along with slightly, marginally stronger abilities (i.e., your spells did like 1% more damage, your melee did 1% more damage, and you took 1% less damage overall). Right now, a great many of us play Quick Play because it is, well, quick and it doesn't require 11 other people to play. Community Warfare is what this game should be centralized around and PGI is doing something about that, albeit slowly. But, people will always gravitate more towards Quick Play because it is fast, easy, and quickly satisfying. If QP had some sort of interaction with CW, and/or vice versa, it would mean it would push people to do additional things. Idiots aside, I want to know that what I'm doing actually matters. Sitting in queue waiting forever to kill people 4x over is asking a lot of my time and it is definitely not something that I want to do in QP, which, btw, would have to be called Slightly Slower than Quick Play. BUT, I'd be ok with additional mech drops, perhaps 2 or even 4 if PGI wanted it, if it meant that I was contributing to something greater other than just burning time.

Make sense?

[Anjian]

Yes, basically long wait times over in game play times is considered toxic for a game, especially online games, to succeed. If you have a long wait time, you better have a long in game time. This is a common tenet in the games industry. They always try to minimize wait times first, then improve in game play time, but not too long, as you want your players to finish and head back to the queue pool. It is accepted that 20 minutes is the maximum for each game but at least you need to enjoy half of that. A certain amount of ingame time must be present to create immersion in the battle but not too long to create fatigue.

[Zeusy]

It would be awesome if there was a an arcade battle mode, not if only to show people how to play but to bring back old players that want to wreck noob, anyways an arcade mode is the only reason i dont play this game. I play war thunder often but i wish i was playing mwo. i have spent many dollar on war thunder but i have not spent a single dollar on mwo because it does not have an arcade mode. I would spend real money on mwo if i could go and rampage on arcade modes for fun and collect some research points. Anyways back to war thunder!

[Khobai]

Quote

Respawn eliminates risk and as such devalues reward.

Nope. You are completely wrong. Respawns would allow players to take MORE risks because they would no longer be petrified by the fear of permadeath.

Permadeath is what eliminates risk and forces everyone to play the same safe game every single time. Permadeath is what turns every single gamemode into another stagnant form of skirmish where everyone always plays exactly the same and whichever team deathballs the best prevails.

Also it does not devalue the reward. Because the reward is to have fun. And ticket based respawns would make gamemodes fun again by adding strategic breadth to the game that was previously lacking. You have a very childish capacity for being entertained if the only joy you get out of the game is killing other players; because that sh*t got old for me ages ago. I expect much more profundity and depth to gameplay than just herp derp killing the other team.

And again denying others a respawn gamemode comes off as being irrational and spiteful because having a respawn gamemode is not mutually exclusive with having one-life gamemodes. Both can exist at the same time. No one wants to remove skirmish; they just want to add new gamemodes where objectives matter more than killing the enemy team rather than being pathetic variations of skirmish.

Ticket based respawns are the only logical evolution for this game. It solves virtually every problem the game has: boring stagnant gameplay, deathballing/nascaring, low TTK, weight class imbalance, etc... every single one of those problems is solved with proper implementation of a ticket based gamemode.

Edited by Khobai, 24 March 2016 - 09:14 PM.

[Zeusy]

It would be awesome if there was a an arcade battle mode, not if only to show people how to play but to bring back old players that want to wreck noob, anyways an arcade mode is the only reason i dont play this game. I play war thunder often but i wish i was playing mwo. i have spent many dollar on war thunder but i have not spent a single dollar on mwo because it does not have an arcade mode. I would spend real money on mwo if i could go and rampage on arcade modes for fun and collect some research points. Anyways back to war thunder!

It would be awesome if there was a an arcade battle mode, not if only to show people how to play but to bring back old players that want to wreck noob, anyways an arcade mode is the only reason i dont play this game. I play war thunder often but i wish i was playing mwo. i have spent many dollar on war thunder but i have not spent a single dollar on mwo because it does not have an arcade mode. I would spend real money on mwo if i could go and rampage on arcade modes for fun and collect some research points. Anyways back to war thunder!

[Wolfways]

Zeusy, on 24 March 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

It would be awesome if there was a an arcade battle mode, not if only to show people how to play but to bring back old players that want to wreck noob, anyways an arcade mode is the only reason i dont play this game. I play war thunder often but i wish i was playing mwo. i have spent many dollar on war thunder but i have not spent a single dollar on mwo because it does not have an arcade mode. I would spend real money on mwo if i could go and rampage on arcade modes for fun and collect some research points. Anyways back to war thunder!

What? The whole of MWO is arcade mode.