54 replies to this topic

[Alardus]

Lets take 4 players. Between them there are 8 medium lasers, 8 LRM-5s, and 4 SRM-6s.

1 Player wants to brawl. He takes 4 SRM-6 and 2 medium laser.

1 player wants to brawl. He takes 6 medium laser.

The last two take 4 LRM-5's a piece because they want to LRM snipe.

What happens in this scenario? If they get into a city fight, only 2 of them can do much damage, especially if the opposition is craftily using edges of building to block LRMS. If they get into a long range fight, only two of them can attack, again. In each case what can happen is that the "dangerous" two players can get killed with impunity, dropping the attack value at that range 50% each time one is killed off, leading to a 0% attack value when two are killed off, and leaving the other two helpless.

Let's reset this:

Each player takes 2 medium lasers, 2 LRM-5's, and 1 SRM-6.

Now what happens? The firepower is identical as the first one at all ranges, but the loss of any one unit only drops the firepower by 25%. The rest are still dangerous. None of the mechs are useless anywhere, and none of them can be removed from play and partially or wholly remove the group's capability to do damage.

The question is: Why do we prefer brawling when you're risking being useless and dying in frustrating ways? Why do people complain about being in their brawler mech when they land on frozen wastelands?

[Fiona Marshe]

Players prefer vomit to a balanced build. The fps shooter part does vindicate this once the reach the preferred range.

[Alienized]

because its much more enjoyable to just blast your opponents face away. :>
besides that, brawling requires alot of sneakyness not everyone has. the out of nowhere approach alone is devastating let alone the massive damageoutburst of brawling builds.

also its a mental thing. alot of players dont want to get in close and personally, therefore forcing them to brawl is a psychological advantage to those that can brawl and find ways to sneak up and lay the smackdown to the back.

[William Mountbank]

In all maps it's possible to use terrain to get within brawling range without exposing one's mech, and within that range specialist mechs will always trump ranged or generalist builds.

'Dying in frustrating ways' is a result of positioning error, and faster brawler builds can normally escape these mishaps better than sniper or lurm builds anyway.

I like generalist builds, but they just aren't kill efficient. Specialist builds can put more damage, faster and for longer, into selected components - and killing enemies faster is the best armour.

[SteelBruiser]

Alardus, on 13 March 2016 - 04:00 AM, said:

Lets take 4 players. Between them there are 8 medium lasers, 8 LRM-5s, and 4 SRM-6s.

1 Player wants to brawl. He takes 4 SRM-6 and 2 medium laser.

1 player wants to brawl. He takes 6 medium laser.

The last two take 4 LRM-5's a piece because they want to LRM snipe.

What happens in this scenario? If they get into a city fight, only 2 of them can do much damage, especially if the opposition is craftily using edges of building to block LRMS. If they get into a long range fight, only two of them can attack, again. In each case what can happen is that the "dangerous" two players can get killed with impunity, dropping the attack value at that range 50% each time one is killed off, leading to a 0% attack value when two are killed off, and leaving the other two helpless.

Let's reset this:

Each player takes 2 medium lasers, 2 LRM-5's, and 1 SRM-6.

Now what happens? The firepower is identical as the first one at all ranges, but the loss of any one unit only drops the firepower by 25%. The rest are still dangerous. None of the mechs are useless anywhere, and none of them can be removed from play and partially or wholly remove the group's capability to do damage.

The question is: Why do we prefer brawling when you're risking being useless and dying in frustrating ways? Why do people complain about being in their brawler mech when they land on frozen wastelands?

They whine because they have not learned to adapt their style to the environment. They have not learned how to use the available ravines to hide while closing in on their quarry...and some don't want to learn...they just want a quick, get in your face battle...something similar to stepping into a boxing ring. They only want the challenge of a fight, not the challenge of getting to one. They've already lost because they've assumed what they can't do on that map and others similar to it.

Edited by SteelBruiser, 13 March 2016 - 04:33 AM.

[Alardus]

William Mountbank, on 13 March 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

In all maps it's possible to use terrain to get within brawling range without exposing one's mech, and within that range specialist mechs will always trump ranged or generalist builds.

'Dying in frustrating ways' is a result of positioning error, and faster brawler builds can normally escape these mishaps better than sniper or lurm builds anyway.

I like generalist builds, but they just aren't kill efficient. Specialist builds can put more damage, faster and for longer, into selected components - and killing enemies faster is the best armour.

Cant you invert that? If killing enemies faster is best, then what happens when your only long range mech gets killed? Now you're very slow at killing the other side if they keep at range.

[William Mountbank]

Alardus, on 13 March 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

Cant you invert that? If killing enemies faster is best, then what happens when your only long range mech gets killed? Now you're very slow at killing the other side if they keep at range.

In this situation, running directly at the enemy is probably a bad idea. But puglife, eh?

[Alardus]

William Mountbank, on 13 March 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

In this situation, running directly at the enemy is probably a bad idea. But puglife, eh?

You're 1 down. You will lose if the clock runs out. They can now sit back and control range by staying away from corridors that allow brawlers to get close.

[FalconerGray]

I've been playing a lot of short range builds lately and of all the maps on rotation, I find Polar Highlands to be the easiest to get into brawling position. There is cover everywhere, it's just that some people aren't switched on enough to see it....

[WildeKarde]

Very few maps don't have some cover for a shorter range mech to close in during a fight, this one is the exception as even if you stay down there is little cover to stop incoming missiles hitting you.

It's not simply you're not balanced in your build it's that enemies are quite often maxed for long range more than brawling. Multiple large LRM launchers, multiple gauss rifle, multiple large lasers, multiple ppc's. Some mechs just don't have the option to cover all possibilities for range.

Very few close in maps penalise a long range build as much as this punishes a brawling build.

[CreativeAnarchy]

I just don't care for that map. It is just not an interesting map to me.

About the only time I'll complain is when we get conquest mode with that map, isn't much of a complaint, just a sarcastic comment then I've gotten it out of my system. I'm not a fan of conquest and don't complain about it on other maps. It is just on that map, I really don't care for that mode. I do play the mode multiplier game to get out of conquest and this usually happens when I've already used it to get out of the previous round I played.

I play the map select multiplier game to hit Caustic and Thermal. The rest of the maps get selected enough that if I'm going to play either of those maps, I'm going to have to use my multiplier.

[thehiddenedge]

I'm guessing you're talking about Polar Highlands aka the best map in the game? I personally don't understand all the butthurt people get with that map. There's so much cover on the map. There's plenty of ways to get into the enemy's flank or rear without even being seen with a brawler mech. You just have to be patient and allow the enemy to set up before you go charging in all willy nilly.

I mean I'm all for generalist builds, but specialists are so much more deadly at their intended ranges, that's why people use them. Good positioning is often times more important than range.

[Rogue Jedi]

for fast Mechs I generally go single range, for slow Mechs I generally go dual range builds, with a majority focus on a single range, e.g. a brawler Atlas with 1 LRM10 or a long range Mech with a few SRMs or Medium lasers.

My irritation on maps like Polar is when the entire team consisting mostly of brawlers gets pinned down because they retreat from taking a partial hit from a single ERML fired from near max range, and are not willing to risk 10 points of damage to move from one piece of cover to another, another issue is that most people do not seem to realize that if they stay in the low points it is realy hard for the enemy to hit them, all we need is 1 Mech poking its head up occasionally to see where the enemy are.

Polar has A LOT of cover allowing you to break line of sight, but little LRM proof cover, however in the central few squares there is little cover of any kind, stay away from the middle and the map is a lot more interesting.
If you play Polar smart it is the most interesting map in the game the problem is most people just run center which is a bad idea on that map

[MechWarrior5152251]

Obviously you do not understand tactics. Min Max will always beat balance.

[Alardus]

legatoblues, on 13 March 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

I've been playing a lot of short range builds lately and of all the maps on rotation, I find Polar Highlands to be the easiest to get into brawling position. There is cover everywhere, it's just that some people aren't switched on enough to see it....

Eh, that really all depends. Cover for how long? If you try to flank down a corridor nascar style, then the other team can just go the opposite way like water in a toilet flush, and you aren't any closer. As well, there are certainly corridors that lead to nice open hills in the distance, which are ~500+ range, that happen to be good sitting spots for long range types to shoot you coming out.

Every crevice in the map has a long angle that can be exploited, either to shoot down it lengthwise or pop people coming out with longer range weapons. This is a consequence of not being built like counter strike maps, where you have hard unpassable walls. There's plenty of hills and freedom of movement.

If a place can appeal to a brawling setup, then a long range build can stay away from that place. No one forces that long range build to stand next to a short angle on a map.

Edited by Alardus, 13 March 2016 - 06:04 AM.

[GeoFalke]

assuming we're talking about polar highlands, my only issue with it is that the only things you ever seem to see on that map are nothing but LRM builds. when you have 5 matches almost back to back on that map with the same missile vomit going on, and all the pub players hiding in a furball because "skary oh-peee mistles" flying everywhere flanking becomes a hassle and it grates on you a bit.

(yeah, yeah, i know. "mount AMS." AMS can only do so much when you have 4 missile boats raining on you at once, and not every mech can mount em.)

that being said, when the missile spewers get distracted with spewing missiles at each other instead of the other mechs, it does get to be more fun, and the map is well designed for multiple play styles.

[jss78]

I'm also guessing we're talking about Polar Highlands here, and not one of the other ice maps.

I think it's a tremendously well-balanced map. A typical game involves a good mixture of long and short range combat. Plus it has a massive plus of lacking any obvious routes or central features. The games there are unpredictable and open-ended in a way that you don't get on any other map. Best map in the game, and by a considerable margin.

Maybe the complaints come because it's a balanced map whereas MWO map design overall has been quite claustrophobic and favouring short-range brawling. So some people are finding themselves having to adjust. IMO the only map in the game with a definite long-range slant is Alpine (and even that's not too bad UNLESS you fight over Candy Mountain).

Edited by jss78, 13 March 2016 - 06:20 AM.

[SplashDown]

4 reasons why i hate frozen waist land map.
1st) I feel its custom made for LRM's with very liitle terrain to protect from LRM's.

2nd) in abrawler build it is near impossible to get in range...the ravines are long narrow paths..maken it hard to turn a corner and find an enemy that isnt 600m away..AND if you pop out of a ravine to rush..ur life span just droped to about 3 seconds.

3rd) It is near impossible to carry a pug team on that map..everytime i play that map i feel as tho ive just enterd world of tanks and the stupid is REAL and in abundance.

4th) ppl vote for it over n over n over..im so sick of playing it ive alrdy stabbed out me eyes..wich turns out is a plus..cuz now i cant see the pugs and so doesnt hurt as much to lose.

Edited by SplashDown, 13 March 2016 - 06:42 AM.

[FalconerGray]

I sometimes feel like some of us are talking about completely different maps here.

I run Radar Deprivation anytime I'm not running ECM and I have never felt like LRMs were a problem on Polar Highlands. I'm not an LRM user, so I'm not 100% on how they operate, but the way I understand is that breaking line of sight is enough to throw the missiles off your tail, right? And as for not being able to get into brawling range? I find exactly the opposite, that it's the easiest map of all to reach brawling range in a safe manner. If I'm running a pure short range mech, I let the two forces find each other, then while the pokers poke, I start making my way closer to the fringes by way of the channels. Whilst the long range guys are drawing all the attention, the mid range builds from both sides start to close up, then once that phase is finished, the brawlers are free to tighten the noose from the sides. Polar is a great map for pincer moves, as it's so easy to co-ordinate and refreshingly natural compared to all the other maps.

I've found that no matter what it is I drop in, Polar HIghlands is the one map that delivers consistently strong gameplay and highly competitive matches, every time. When running a full brawl mech on, for example, Crimson Straight or Tourmaline Desert, my results are feast or famine, about equally apportioned.

All this talk is interesting though, because different people do have different results on different maps. I'm confident enough to say that I have had not one single drop on the new Forest Colony and Caustic Valley maps that I have enjoyed. Not one....

Edited by legatoblues, 13 March 2016 - 06:53 AM.

[DjPush]

MechWarrior5152251, on 13 March 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

Obviously you do not understand tactics. Min Max will always beat balance.

You sure about that? I've beat plenty of min max builds in a balanced build.


As for the OP's topic:
Polar Highlands is just boring. That is why I hate it.

Edited by DjPush, 13 March 2016 - 07:06 AM.