13 replies to this topic

[Bergitor]

What is the point in having certain mechs that require a prerequisite number of Heat Sinks? I'm just curious. The Locust 1V requires 4 heat sinks to have a valid build, on something that has more ballistic hard points than anything. That's 20% of its tonnage taken up by that, before any thing else is calculated.

[FerrokenFibrous]

BattleTech construction rules. All 'Mechs require at least 10 heat sinks, and normally have all 10 built into the engine, but because most smaller/lighter mechs tend to mount engines with a lower number/rating, some of the 10 required heat sinks would have to be external.

One of the jarring things about this in MWO is that all 10 heat sinks are supposed to come "free" when accounting for the mech's weight, adding only to the mech's critical space,not the tonnage.

[Escef]

KiyoshiKazuya, on 13 March 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

One of the jarring things about this in MWO is that all 10 heat sinks are supposed to come "free" when accounting for the mech's weight, adding only to the mech's critical space,not the tonnage.

Yeah, it's an odd little kluge. That and the tonnage for your gyro and cockpit get added to the engine weights. If you look at the MWO engine weights and the Battletech engine weights, you will find that MWO engine weight = Battletech engine weight + 3 tons for cockpit + engine rating divided by 100 rounded up to a full ton for gyro - number of base 10 heat sinks that won't fit in the engine.

This is why the Urbanmech's stock 60 rated engine has a negative weight:
60 rated engine in Battletech is 1.5 tons, +3 for cockpit is 4.5 tons, +1 for gyro is 5.5 tons, -8 for external heat sinks leaves the engine with a weight of -2.5 tons.

Edited by Escef, 13 March 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[FupDup]

I'm still one of those heretics that wants sub-250 engines to have their external DHS moved to the inside. This does also mean accounting for the tonnage not spent on external sinks, so the engine's initial weight goes up a bit...but the end weight is still the same.

Case study: XL180 engine used in something like an Urbanmech.

Current XL180 stats:

<Module id="3334" name="Engine_XL_180" CType="CEngineStats" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_180" descTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_180_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" />
	<EngineStats slots="6" sideSlots="3" sidesToDie="1" rating="180" weight="5.5" heatsinks="7" health="15" />
  </Module>

Proposed stats:

<Module id="3334" name="Engine_XL_180" CType="CEngineStats" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_180" descTag="@Engine_XL_Fusion_180_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\XLEngine.dds" />
	<EngineStats slots="6" sideSlots="3" sidesToDie="1" rating="180" weight="8.5" heatsinks="10" health="15" />
  </Module>

Increase heatsinks from 7 to 10, increase weight from 5.5 to 8.5. The weight is the same in the end, you just save 9 critslots (which is a lot).

Maths:
5.5 tons current engine + 3 required DHS = 8.5 tons total


The gains:
1. More critical slots for low-engine mechs
2. More heat efficiency for low-engine mechs
3. Sub-100 engines no longer show weird negative weight values

The losses:
1. Neckbeard protests and riots

Edited by FupDup, 13 March 2016 - 06:17 AM.

[Bergitor]

Escef, on 13 March 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

Yeah, it's an odd little klug. That and the tonnage for your gyro and cockpit get added to the engine weights. If you look at the MWO engine weights and the Battletech engine weights, you will find that MWO engine weight = Battletech engine weight + 3 tons for cockpit + engine rating divided by 100 rounded up to a full ton for gyro - number of base 10 heat sinks that won't fit in the engine.

This is why the Urbanmech's stock 60 rated engine has a negative weight:
60 rated engine in Battletech is 1.5 tons, +3 for cockpit is 4.5 tons, +1 for gyro is 5.5 tons, -8 for external heat sinks leaves the engine with a weight of -2.5 tons.

Makes more sense. I've played the table top for years, I was just puzzled why some of the variants for a given chassis were this way and others were not. I didn't know that the weights were calculated differently for MWO.

[Zerberus]

KiyoshiKazuya, on 13 March 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

BattleTech construction rules. All 'Mechs require at least 10 heat sinks, and normally have all 10 built into the engine, but because most smaller/lighter mechs tend to mount engines with a lower number/rating, some of the 10 required heat sinks would have to be external.

100% correct.

Quote

One of the jarring things about this in MWO is that all 10 heat sinks are supposed to come "free" when accounting for the mech's weight, adding only to the mech's critical space,not the tonnage.

If you do the math and closely compare what MWO engines and gyros and cockpits weigh compared to their TT counterparts, in 99.5% of all cases your "unarmed but otherwise pilotable" weight will be EXACTLY THE SAME. Engines that contain less than 10 HS are scaled down by exactly 1 ton for every external HS needed to reach 10, specifically to compensate for the limitations of the game engine and /or original UI that necessitated this solution. In TT the engines weigh more but the HS are free, in MWO the heatsinks still have weight but the engine is lighter to compensate, bit it also has to compensate for the cockpit and gyro which in mwo weigh nothing.

Think of how many stock builds would be completely wrecked if this weren´t the case..for ex, a standard locust with a 180 would be 3 tons over it´s max weight. Urbanmechs would be 8 tons or more over

The system works fine as is, and tbh the very last thing we need to do is start dicking around with the most basic of basic BT Rules that have worked fine both online and off for over 30 years ( 20 in the case of videogaming in specific), just because people feel they have a better wheel. It´s onbe thing to have teh same result due to programming tricks, it´s another entirely to implement things that completely change the end result, like Fup´s idea which unnecessarily frees up crit space that certain builds should not necessarily have.

Now, you may prefer to be a **** about it Fup and respectlessly refer to anyone that disagrees as a "neckbeard", "Because the only reason to be against it is adherence to some archaic TT belief system"... But the ACTUAL fact is that there is another significant disadvantage that you are simply refusing to consider, probably becasue it contradicts your personal agenda.

Becasue while it would buff certain mechs (that may or may not need it), it also opens a can of worms, because in accordance with BT rules any mech can mount any size engine... so what´s to stop somneone from using say a 180 on an assault mech other than the low speed (which most PUGs couldn´t care less about)? "Oh, cool! It´s cheaper, I get extra tonnage and crit slots, and still just as heat efficient as with a larger engine" is exactly what the tryhard minmaxers will say to it, and they will abuse and exploit it in any way they can.


MWO would be the only BT game ever to **** around with the build rules and open the Can of Worms that creates, and the resulting abuse "might" cause a lot of the long time fans like myself be inclined to say "Ok, now this is not even remotely BT anymore, goodbye" . And even that is not so much a display of being a "neckbeard" (And seriously, what kind of backwoods fraktard even thinks that that term means anything tangible, other than a borderline xenophobic "He doesn´t look like I do, so (x) him and (or for) his opinions!"?), as much as seeing the end of any form of balance or logic in teh game slowly creeping up by saying "rules suck, lets change them all."

*edited for Autocensor fail*

Edited by Zerberus, 13 March 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[Xavori]

Zerberus, on 13 March 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

The system works fine as is, and tbh the very last thing we need to do is start dicking around with the most basic of basic BT Rules that have worked fine both online and off for over 30 years ( 20 in the case of videogaming in specific), just because people feel they have a better wheel.

But what if I want to put an XL400 engine in an Urbie? Who are you to crush my dreams?!?!?!?!?

[Zerberus]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

But what if I want to put an XL400 engine in an Urbie? Who are you to crush my dreams?!?!?!?!?

You mean the same way that engine and its Gyro would crush the Urbie if you actually tried to physically put it in? Ißt would be like trying to to fit Chernobyl A block into a trash bin

If so, glad to be of service

Edited by Zerberus, 13 March 2016 - 07:12 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

But what if I want to put an XL400 engine in an Urbie? Who are you to crush my dreams?!?!?!?!?

That engine weighs as much as the mech itself....

*DREAMS CRUSHED*

Edited by Revis Volek, 13 March 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[Escef]

Zerberus, on 13 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

You mean the same way that engine and its Gyro would crush the Urbie if you actually tried to physically put it in? Ißt would be like trying to to fit Chernobyl A block into a trash bin

If so, glad to be of service

No fooling, teh engine alone in TT is 26.5 tons for an XL, the gyro would put the poor thing overweight, nevermind the cockpit and structure.

[Zerberus]

All of that aside, what I WOULD like to see it them remove engine cap completely, though from what I understand esp on light mechs it´s more of a n engine limitation than a design limitation....

Want to run a 400XL in a hunchie and zip around at 100 something? be my guest, but you´re not going to be doing it with an AC20 in your Shoulder

Want to run a 100 std in an Atlas? again, be my guest... but don´t besurprised if you see the trees honking and passing you on teh way to the battle...

Edited by Zerberus, 13 March 2016 - 07:20 AM.

[Xavori]

Zerberus, on 13 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

You mean the same way that engine and its Gyro would crush the Urbie if you actually tried to physically put it in? Ißt would be like trying to to fit Chernobyl A block into a trash bin

If so, glad to be of service

Revis Volek, on 13 March 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

That engine weighs as much as the mech itself....

*DREAMS CRUSHED*

*sigh*

People just like to suck the fun out of everything....

[Zerberus]

Xavori, on 13 March 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

*sigh*

People just like to suck the fun out of everything....

Well, I consider jokes to be "fun", but I guess im strange

[Xavori]

Zerberus, on 13 March 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, I consider jokes to be "fun", but I guess im strange

People are strange, when you're a stranger...