60 replies to this topic

[HellJumper]

I am being a bit curious here... if i understand the damage correctly

AC-20 damage: 20
Gauss damage: 15

From my experience with the game (i am tier 3 on every mech) most of the battles are fought at medium to close range (under 500 meters). An AC-20 starts messing you up real quickly near those range and in a short time spawn will do decent enough damage.

Now gauss imo gets less effective in those ranges due to the charge up mechanic as with those ranges you have much less reaction time to setup your shots.

So my question is that why does the gauss have a charge up time and an AC-20 does not when an AC-20 can do a much more damage at closer ranges without having the penalty of charging up..


PS. i am not talking about medium to long range combat at all...

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

gauss has zero heat and a really fast projectile,it was pretty overpowered before the charge time was introduced

[El Bandito]

HellJumper, on 13 March 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

PS. i am not talking about medium to long range combat at all...

There is the issue--you have to take all variables into account. One does not compare LRMs with SSRMs cause they have different uses at different ranges. Same with AC20 and Gauss. AC20 is also affected by high heat and unless quirked, has pretty slow projectile speed. Unlike AC20, where GH affects multiple AC20 firing at the same time, Gauss has no heat restrictions.

If Gauss charge is removed, then all the poptarts will come out of the woodwork, PPFLD will be king, and the game turns for the worse, again.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 March 2016 - 10:18 PM.

[HellJumper]

El Bandito, on 13 March 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

There is the issue--you have to take all variables into account. One does not compare LRMs with SSRMs cause they have different uses at different ranges. Same with AC20 and Gauss. AC20 is also affected by high heat and unless quirked, has pretty slow projectile speed. Unlike AC20, where GH affects multiple AC20 firing at the same time, Gauss has no heat restrictions.

If Gauss charge is removed, then all the poptarts will come out of the woodwork, PPFLD will be king, and the game turns for the worse, again.

yes it was a serious issue back when gauss charge was not here. the thing is that even with that extra heat issue of AC-20 we still see more of them being fielded (in pairs as well) as compared to gaus being used. Surely the charge up cannot be the reason for players not bringing gauss rifle to the field, even with the advantage of having no heat penalty. there has to be something else wrong here.

As for the medium to long range point, yes you are right that all variables need to be considered when making an argument and even if we keep in view the long range element of the game we still see LRMs, LL, PPC being used as a large engagement weapon and not the gauss (i blame the charge up here).. I am not saying to remove the charge up for gaus but i think this is one of a the major reasons we see it being used less.

Rear Admiral Tier 6, on 13 March 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

gauss has zero heat and a really fast projectile,it was pretty overpowered before the charge time was introduced

yes it has zero heat and yet we see people carrying an AC-20 more than a gauss even though AC-20 gives your more disadvantage (less range and much more heat)

[El Bandito]

HellJumper, on 13 March 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

yes it was a serious issue back when gauss charge was not here. the thing is that even with that extra heat issue of AC-20 we still see more of them being fielded (in pairs as well) as compared to gaus being used. Surely the charge up cannot be the reason for players not bringing gauss rifle to the field, even with the advantage of having no heat penalty. there has to be something else wrong here.

As for the medium to long range point, yes you are right that all variables need to be considered when making an argument and even if we keep in view the long range element of the game we still see LRMs, LL, PPC being used as a large engagement weapon and not the gauss (i blame the charge up here).. I am not saying to remove the charge up for gaus but i think this is one of a the major reasons we see it being used less.

Did you just recently came back to MWO? Cause pre-cooldown nerf a couple of months ago, there were a lot of mechs using Gauss, even with charge mechanic. With the cooldown increased from 4 seconds to 5.5 seconds, Gauss DPS went lower and its use declined, but there are still plenty of mechs using it in T1 matches. The nerf was reverted a bit so now Gauss has 5 seconds cooldown + charge time.

Perhaps in T3 matches there are far less people proficient with using Gauss along with other weapon systems, than higher tiers. I myself never touched Gauss until I got to T1 and began using meta Clan mechs such as the EBJ. Also, people can hit the enemy from long distance more reliably in higher tiers, meaning brawls happen after both sides take noticeable damage from range, not right away.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 March 2016 - 10:39 PM.

[Curccu]

El Bandito, on 13 March 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

If Gauss charge is removed, then all the poptarts will come out of the woodwork, PPFLD will be king, and the game turns for the worse, again.

I think it's hoverjets mostly that made poptarts go away, with enough JJs it's still pretty easy with or without gauss charge (2erppc / erppc+gauss summoner) but DPS is pretty low compared to current vomit meta.

[HellJumper]

El Bandito, on 13 March 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

Did you just recently came back to MWO? Cause pre-cooldown nerf a couple of months ago, there were a lot of mechs using Gauss, even with charge mechanic. With the cooldown increased from 4 seconds to 5.5 seconds, Gauss DPS went lower and its use declined, but there are still plenty of mechs using it in T1 matches. The nerf was reverted a bit so now Gauss has 5 seconds cooldown + charge time.

Perhaps in T3 matches there are far less people proficient with using Gauss along with other weapon systems, than higher tiers. I myself never touched Gauss until I got to T1 and began using meta Clan mechs such as the EBJ. Also, people can hit the enemy from long distance more reliably in higher tiers, meaning brawls happen after both sides take noticeable damage from range, not right away.

yes i did.. came back when the warhammer released, played till my prem time expired and now i will come back when kodiak comes.

Maybe the increase in the cooldown time has its effect (as you are mentioning) and i dont know about tier 1 battles as i have not reached that point in any of my mechs.. so that is why i stayed with tier 3 and not many people use gauss here hence the reason of being curious

[Thunderbird Anthares]

its more as if the pinpoint massive alpha laser vomit boating completely replaced the people trying to use gauss...

i got back to MWO a month ago or so... why are most of the mechs so RIDICULOUSLY OVERGUNNED? cant figure that one out... some of them have easily double to triple the amount of weapons... which they can all focus in one spot

and then someone says Russ wants to bring the TTK down...

*mind-blown*

[LordNothing]

the correct answer is ac10.

i love the 20 on a brawler and the gauss on a camper. before i make my case for the 10, lets compare the 20 with the gauss:

tonnage difference between the 20 and gauss is balanced out by the abysmal dmg/t of the ac20 and they weight about the same once youve installed a sane amount of ammo. so why the 10.

space, the ac20 uses a lot. you cant put it on an arm with a lower actuator, and you cant stick it in a torso without a std engine. the gauss can go into a fully articulated arm, and while its a bad idea to put it in the torso with an xl engine, nothing stops you.

damage vs range. the weapons complement eachother in this reguard. do you want a lot of damage point blank or slightly less damage across the map.

ease of use vs velocity. charge or slow shell. i tend to favor the slow shell mostly because the effective range is almost point blank. the gauss benefits the patient player who is cool headed and calculating who can make sure that gauss is charged when they are ready to fire.

how does the 10 compare?

tonnage: its lighter it wont limit your options for other weapons, ammo capacity per ton is also way better than either.
space: its small enough to fit anywhere.

damage and range? its a good intermediate range weapon, it doesnt have the damage but its cd is short and lets you drop another shell before you need to back off.

ease of use and velocity: its more forgiving than the ac20, a missed shot wont hurt your huge ammo supply. that comes in handy when you cant hit a moving target at max range because of the slower than gauss shell (but thats fixed by learning a skill, which any ac20 user should already have, leading).

tldr: ac10 is baws

[Thunderbird Anthares]

i shall invalidate your entire post with one comment:

Gauss looks REALLY cool when it hits something

[HellJumper]

LordNothing, on 13 March 2016 - 11:24 PM, said:

the correct answer is ac10.

i love the 20 on a brawler and the gauss on a camper. before i make my case for the 10, lets compare the 20 with the gauss:

tonnage difference between the 20 and gauss is balanced out by the abysmal dmg/t of the ac20 and they weight about the same once youve installed a sane amount of ammo. so why the 10.

space, the ac20 uses a lot. you cant put it on an arm with a lower actuator, and you cant stick it in a torso without a std engine. the gauss can go into a fully articulated arm, and while its a bad idea to put it in the torso with an xl engine, nothing stops you.

damage vs range. the weapons complement eachother in this reguard. do you want a lot of damage point blank or slightly less damage across the map.

ease of use vs velocity. charge or slow shell. i tend to favor the slow shell mostly because the effective range is almost point blank. the gauss benefits the patient player who is cool headed and calculating who can make sure that gauss is charged when they are ready to fire.

how does the 10 compare?

tonnage: its lighter it wont limit your options for other weapons, ammo capacity per ton is also way better than either.
space: its small enough to fit anywhere.

damage and range? its a good intermediate range weapon, it doesnt have the damage but its cd is short and lets you drop another shell before you need to back off.

ease of use and velocity: its more forgiving than the ac20, a missed shot wont hurt your huge ammo supply. that comes in handy when you cant hit a moving target at max range because of the slower than gauss shell (but thats fixed by learning a skill, which any ac20 user should already have, leading).

tldr: ac10 is baws

i agree with you points about the gauss...and that is the problem imo.

Gauss has a number of advantages over the AC-20 but yet we see a weapon that generates much more heats, is heavy, takes more slots and has a shorter range being used more...something is wrong for sure...

[Thunderbird Anthares]

maybe the whole Gauss thing would be solved with better map design

we need MANY more large maps...

[LordNothing]

HellJumper, on 13 March 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

i agree with you points about the gauss...and that is the problem imo.

Gauss has a number of advantages over the AC-20 but yet we see a weapon that generates much more heats, is heavy, takes more slots and has a shorter range being used more...something is wrong for sure...

the ac20 is just a fun weapon. i prefer it over the gauss. they are about on par with eachother though. but the ac10 is the workhorse.

[HellJumper]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 13 March 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

maybe the whole Gauss thing would be solved with better map design

we need MANY more large maps...

lrms will rain more

LordNothing, on 13 March 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

the ac20 is just a fun weapon. i prefer it over the gauss. they are about on par with eachother though. but the ac10 is the workhorse.

i use AC-10 on some of my mechs... never for brawling though

[Thunderbird Anthares]

HellJumper, on 13 March 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

lrms will rain more



i use AC-10 on some of my mechs... never for brawling though

im okay with that, im an LRM maniac
thats why the map design needs to be stepped up though... Polar Highlands is a step in the correct direction, but there needs to be more maps with this size and this complex concealment geometry... but in all sorts of flavors and shapes

Polar is kind of an oxymoron.... huge and open, yet it has by far the most concealment from any of the maps, even though not that much cover... i like that, its interesting

now make a map like that on a Mars like planet full of cracks and rock formations while watching videos of people playing Tourmaline

[HellJumper]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 14 March 2016 - 12:00 AM, said:

im okay with that, im an LRM maniac
thats why the map design needs to be stepped up though... Polar Highlands is a step in the correct direction, but there needs to be more maps with this size and this complex concealment geometry... but in all sorts of flavors and shapes

Polar is kind of an oxymoron.... huge and open, yet it has by far the most concealment from any of the maps, even though not that much cover... i like that, its interesting

now make a map like that on a Mars like planet full of cracks and rock formations while watching videos of people playing Tourmaline

idk but people tend to hate lrms more i an okish with them..

yes bigger maps might encourage people to use gauss rifle more..but currently a i have experienced the game the fights are too close range due to which all advantages of gauss are overlooked and people tend to go towards AC-20 instead

[Prof RJ Gumby]

HellJumper, on 14 March 2016 - 12:33 AM, said:

idk but people tend to hate lrms more i an okish with them..
yes bigger maps might encourage people to use gauss rifle more..but currently a i have experienced the game the fights are too close range due to which all advantages of gauss are overlooked and people tend to go towards AC-20 instead

Much depends on your tier friend. I love the AC20+srm/mpl mixes, but half the matches I must be very, very patient to be able to do anything, because there's very hard to find a chance to close up on the enemy without being focusfired. AC20 is bigger boom and more damage if you can get close, but gauss gives you more precision and ability to shoot virtually anyone within your line of sight. I use both and like both.

[theta123]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 13 March 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

maybe the whole Gauss thing would be solved with better map design

we need MANY more large maps...

No we frikking dont. Polar highlands is another buff for the range meta vomitters that prevents poor brawlers like me from coming into effect!

[DerMaulwurf]

El Bandito, on 13 March 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

There is the issue--you have to take all variables into account. One does not compare LRMs with SSRMs cause they have different uses at different ranges. Same with AC20 and Gauss. AC20 is also affected by high heat and unless quirked, has pretty slow projectile speed. Unlike AC20, where GH affects multiple AC20 firing at the same time, Gauss has no heat restrictions.

If Gauss charge is removed, then all the poptarts will come out of the woodwork, PPFLD will be king, and the game turns for the worse, again.

Lol wut?

Poptart meta and gauss charge mechanism overlapped for a pretty long time. Actually poptarts were least affected by the charge mechanic, since they could most easily predict when they wanted to fire that Gauss.

At some point 'Gauss Charge was needed to kill poptarting' will become as memetic as 'Ghost Heat was needed to kill the 6 PPC stalkers'. Both are wrong, but keep on popping up, because they are repeated by people who should know better.


Having said that, the AC/20 needs to be better at short ranges than the Gauss Rifles to justify its existance. You cannot just ignore the other range brackets, where the Gauss has the advantage. So the charge mechanism needs to stay or at least be replaced by a cd nerf, because the Gauss Rifle just synergizes much better with other weapons. The AC/20s heat will constrain the use of your lasers/srms, while the Gauss doesn't.

[thehiddenedge]

theta123, on 14 March 2016 - 01:13 AM, said:

No we frikking dont. Polar highlands is another buff for the range meta vomitters that prevents poor brawlers like me from coming into effect!

I don't really have problems getting into range in my Hunchie 4G or my Mauler. That map has tons of concealment and cover if you use it right. If anything we need more maps like Polar and from what I've seen of Grim Plexus, it looks promising.

Like some others have said, it's the short engagement ranges that make it seem like the AC20 is more common than the Gauss. I use both and see both quite often. Although gauss does seem to be slightly less common than a couple months ago. I will say that I don't like the charge mechanic, but I recognize it as a necessary drawback. Gauss Rifles in MW4 were stupid effective even with long cooldowns.

Edited by thehiddenedge, 14 March 2016 - 01:59 AM.