220 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Some of you are missing the forest for the trees.

Okay, let's dive into the core of the problem, shall we?

***USING VANILLA 'MECH & EQUIPMENT VALUES***

Spoiler

• Clan weapons have greater range per ton, per slot.
  
• Clan weapons have greater damage per ton, per slot.
  
• Clan lasers generally have greater damage/tick per ton, per slot.
  
• Clan Ferro/Endo save more weight per slot.
  
• Clan XLs save more weight per slot...and don't kill you on ST loss.
  
• Clan DHS provide more heat capacity and dissipation per slot.
  
• Clan have targeting computers improving crit chance, laser range, and projectile velocity.

What are their disadvantages?

Spoiler

• Clans have locked equipment on OmniMechs.
  
• Clans have hotter energy weapons.
  
• Clans have longer laser durations.
  
• Clans have only +70% for max range on lasers.
  
• Clans have streaming LRMs.
  
• Clans have greater spread on SRMs.
  
• Clans have burst-fire UACs.

Now, the IS do have some advantages of their own, which amount to the inverse of the Clan disadvantages:

Spoiler

• IS have no OmniMechs, so locked equipment doesn't apply anywhere.
  
• IS have colder lasers.
  
• IS have shorter laser duration.
  
• IS have +100% for max range on lasers.
  
• IS have clustered LRMs.
  
• IS have tighter spread on SRMs.
  
• IS have single-shot ACs.

That's it. Let's translate that Clan advantage list into IS disadvantages now:

Spoiler

• IS weapons do less damage per ton, per slot.
  
• IS weapons have inferior range per ton, per slot.
  
• IS lasers have inferior damage/tick per ton, per slot.
  
• IS Ferro/Endo save at best half as much weight per slot.
  
• IS XLs save less weight per slot...and kill you on ST loss.
  
• IS DHS provide less heat capacity and dissipation per slot.
  
• IS have no optional equipment they can trade resources for to enhance weapon performance.

I dunno about you guys, but that list of Clan advantages/IS disadvantages looks way more potent than the list of Clan disadvantages/IS advantages. For the cost, Clan stuff is simply better, the trade-offs made to gain those advantages are not equitable to what the IS give up to have theirs. That's why quirks exist at all; because not only do some 'Mechs just suck relative to others, an entire set of equipment flat-out sucks compared to the other. That includes isXL. Without quirks, Clans trample all over the Inner Sphere (which is lore accurate, but sh*t for game-play if we're trying to have same-size teams).

ON THE OTHER HAND...

We also know that the IS are plenty competitive when they get the correct type and amount of equipment buffs and 'Mech buffs. They wiped the floor with the Clans before the previous balance pass; the engine fragility was a complete non-issue. Even now, there are a lot of IS 'Mechs that are competitive. Again, the fragility on the XL doesn't seem to be an issue.

You know what that tells me?

That tells me we can take buffs granted by 'Mech quirks, decouple them from the chassis-variants, and shove them into the items they are affecting and have a level playing field. Quirks need only be used to help 'Mechs with inherently flawed geo/hardpoints/whatever.

Is doing something like a structure buff to isXL as mathematically simple as equalizing the two engines? No. But A.) that's not our concern since whether or not we like the mechanism by which something is made viable has zero impact on its utility inside the match and B.) even if we think it is our concern, it's the pot calling the kettle black to say this this sort of subjective tweak is a bad way to balance if we wholly support tweaking literally all of the other equipment in the exact same fashion. The engine is no more or less fundamental to the system of 'Mech building than all of the other equipment available to each faction, and to treat it otherwise is folly. Objectively, it's unnecessary to make both sides be 2+2 = 4 when we can have one side be 2+2 = 4 and the other be sqrt(16) = 4. Same final value for both, radically (ha!) different approach.

You know what I think needs to happen? I think PGI needs to pick a theme for each faction, each playing the foil to the other, and tweak all the equipment to fit it. Right now they are trying to make the two sides behave identically while trying to preserve only the appearance of being different...which is completely counter to the whole "equal but different" philosophy. Making isXL behave like cXL is just another step in that direction and, frankly, is a rather unimaginative way to balance the game that betrays the primary conceit of said game: we've got two sides with two different styles. I don't give a d*mn about lore, this is about game design and maintaining the integrity of the things that distinguish your product against everybody else's.

So...I vote "NO" to making isXL survive ST loss like cXL.

I do, however, vote "YES" to buffing STD engines while we're considering re-examining stuff.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 14 March 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[dervishx5]

All of you are wrong, especially Bishop and Gyrok.

BTW I'm writing a Gyrok x Bishop slashfic.

[Bishop Steiner]

dervishx5, on 14 March 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

All of you are wrong, especially Bishop and Gyrok.

BTW I'm writing a Gyrok x Bishop slashfic.

Man, fantastic argument you posted.

Simply fantastic. Hope your slasher flick is just as riveting! (oooh!! Can I use a rivet gun on someone in it?!?=!)

[dervishx5]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

Man, fantastic argument you posted.

Simply fantastic. Hope your slasher flick is just as riveting! (oooh!! Can I use a rivet gun on someone in it?!?=!)

Let's just say it involves a gauss rifle, a stalker, and a lot of lube.

[Gyrok]

Food for thought.

The IS has it so bad, that I watched 8 MRBC matches this past week, 5 rounds each.

Total of 640 mechs possible.

Here are some numbers:

Clan mechs brought:

1 WHK

1 TW

1 HBR

3 Jenner IIC

1 ACH

That is it. Out of 640 total mech choices, comp teams from various MRBC divisions brought 633 IS mechs, most with XL engines, and 7 clan mechs.

IS must be terrible to only get 98.9% of all the mech drops in comp matches this week.

Just for grins and giggles, comp teams brought 35 BKs. You saw those 5 times more often than you saw even a single clan mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

dervishx5, on 14 March 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

Let's just say it involves a gauss rifle, a stalker, and a lot of lube.

Ah, so you have no actual balance argument, just have a build you want to run without penalty! Excelsior!

[dervishx5]

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Food for thought.

The IS has it so bad, that I watched 8 MRBC matches this past week, 5 rounds each.

Total of 640 mechs possible.

Here are some numbers:

Clan mechs brought:

1 WHK

1 TW

1 HBR

3 Jenner IIC

1 ACH

That is it. Out of 640 total mech choices, comp teams from various MRBC divisions brought 633 IS mechs, most with XL engines, and 7 clan mechs.

IS must be terrible to only get 98.9% of all the mech drops in comp matches this week.

Just for grins and giggles, comp teams brought 35 BKs. You saw those 5 times more often than you saw even a single clan mech.

While you may have a point, I know for sure that both NS teams brought plenty of clan mechs. There were more IS than clan though, but at about a 60-40 ratio.

Edited by dervishx5, 14 March 2016 - 04:23 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

Simply fantastic. Hope your slasher flick is just as riveting! (oooh!! Can I use a rivet gun on someone in it?!?=!)

Slashfic and slasher flicks are not the same. Though I guess you can still use a rivet gun. Whatever floats your boat.

[Gyrok]

dervishx5, on 14 March 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

While you may have a point, I know for sure that both NS teams brought plenty of clan mechs. There were more IS than clan though, but at about a 60-40 ratio.

I did not see the NS match as I recall...that would likely have shifted numbers some...but the other 8 matches that happened were so overwhelmingly heavy on IS mechs, we may be talking about a number around ~88-90% instead of 98.9%

[dervishx5]

Rouken Vordermark, on 14 March 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

Slashfic and slasher flicks are not the same. Though I guess you can still use a rivet gun. Whatever floats your boat.

I'd imagine that if Gyrok and Bishop were involved, it would be a mix of the two. Lots of dressing up in women suits, lotion on skin, and dancing to goodbye horses.

[Gyrok]

dervishx5, on 14 March 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

I'd imagine that if Gyrok and Bishop were involved, it would be a mix of the two. Lots of dressing up in women suits, lotion on skin, and dancing to goodbye horses.

Something tells me you are a very disturbed individual.

[dervishx5]

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

I did not see the NS match as I recall...that would likely have shifted numbers some...but the other 8 matches that happened were so overwhelmingly heavy on IS mechs, we may be talking about a number around ~88-90% instead of 98.9%

We're weird in that we think the executioner is a good mech. :shrug:

I... I'm agreeing with Gyrok here (and it feels wrong), but the IS is the way to go right now.

But I personally thought it was a bad idea to bring the Clans in at all.

[Koniving]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

My actual opinion on the subject is this, Lordred:
Through armor criticals. Engine health matters.
Watch the tears as Clan mechs with both side torsos and center torso intact, start dying.

Sadly we're talking about PGI where we have the the design competence of a Miley Cyrus concert during the anti-Disney image push and the arrogance of Justin Bieber when it comes to defending those poor design decisions or implementing convoluted bandaids.

That said, remember the non-humanoid mechs have almost all armor pushed forward. Aim for pelvis (which they can't twist), dissect one shoulder at a time, or my favorite leg 'em and saunter behind 'em to finish the job.
It'd be nice if they didn't have such extreme torso twist options, though.

[dervishx5]

Gyrok, on 14 March 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Something tells me you are a very disturbed individual.

He said, lifting his head back in a howl of laughter. The wolf helmet on Gyrok's head gave the impression of a wolf howling at the moon. And then his engine exploded in golden fire while Kai Allard Liao saved the day doing something impossible.

-Excerpt from "Duty of Honor" by Michael Stackpole

Edited by dervishx5, 14 March 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Gyrok]

dervishx5, on 14 March 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

He said, lifting his head back in a howl of laughter. The wolf helmet on Gyrok's head gave the impression of a wolf howling at the moon. And then his engine exploded in golden fire while Kai Allard Liao saved the day doing something impossible.

-Excerpt from "Duty of Honor" by Michael Stackpole

lol

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 March 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

Some of you are missing the forest for the trees.

Slight thing to consider here:

Currently Clan DHS: 10 DHS on a 250 or higher engine does:
2.0 heat/sec cooling.
30 + (10*1.1) = 41 threshold.
+ Elite skills:
2.3 heat/sec cooling
49.2 threshold.


Currently IS DHS: 10 DHS on a 250 or higher engine does:
2.0 heat/sec cooling
30 + (10*1.5) = 45 threshold. (Debated but is the case according to Smurfy)
+elite skills:
2.3 heat/sec cooling.
54 threshold.

Otherwise: 10 IS DHS on a 250 engine does:
2.0 heat/sec cooling
30 + (10*2.0) = 50 threshold.
+ elite skills:
2.3 heat/sec cooling.
60 threshold.

15 DHS on a Clan mech:
(10*0.2) + (5*0.15) = 2.75 heat/sec cooling.
30 + (15*1.1) = 46.5 threshold.
+ elite skills.
3.1625 heat/sec cooling.
55.8 threshold.

15 DHS on an IS mech Debated.
(10*0.2) + (5*0.14) = 2.7 heat/sec.
30 + (15*1.4) = 51 threshold.
+ elite skills:
3.105 heat/sec cooling
61.2 threshold.

Old IS 15 DHS.
(10*0.2) + (5*0.14) = 2.7 heat/sec.
30 + (10*2)+(5*1.4) = 57 threshold.
+elite skills.
3.105 heat/sec cooling
68.4 threshold.

Just some food for thought.

That said, I agree... and I believe the factions should each have their flavors. But how would they apply them to us? To the mechs? Personally I believe quirks should be 'optional' things you can tack onto your mech. Or bound to specific 'brands' of equipment to create more variety. Though I understand that would defeat their original purpose. However PGI has already defeated that purpose as it is in MWO.

[SplashDown]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

ina word..NO!.......sorry

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Absolute no to isXL behaving like cXL
definite yes to LFE's

Call me a lorenut if you wish, just dont brutally violate the lore any more than PGI already did (in wrong places and with undesirable effects I might add)

[LT. HARDCASE]

FFS giving us the LFE would make the game so much better, and we could actually begin to really have legit balance discussion.

[Mcgral18]

LT. HARDCASE, on 14 March 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

FFS giving us the LFE would make the game so much better, and we could actually begin to really have legit balance discussion.

Which would hopefully involve more than just Legacy Tech™