47 replies to this topic

[Half Ear]

Tristan Winter, on 17 March 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

What if they just got massive agility quirks instead? I kind of like the overall theme where IS mechs are super durable and Clan mechs have terrifying firepower. Jenner IICs and Hunchback IICs have more firepower than most IS heavies. And that's fine, as long as they are fragile.

I don't really like the idea that both sides should have the same structure quirks, the same XL engine rules, the same weapon ranges, etc.

Enough vanilla. Let's have some flavour in this game.

The isXL and cXL have the same rules? (chuckles) Clan mechs may lose part of their firepower with heat/movement penalties while the IS mechs actually die with the loss of a side torso. And that is due to the carry over rule from the boardgame where, with 3 engine crits, a mech dies. But in this game there are no actual engine crits that occurs from either side torso nor from the center torso.

Get back with us if that ever does happen though, okay?

[Hit the Deck]

Half Ear, on 18 March 2016 - 03:36 AM, said:

The isXL and cXL have the same rules? (chuckles) Clan mechs may lose part of their firepower with heat/movement penalties while the IS mechs actually die with the loss of a side torso. And that is due to the carry over rule from the boardgame where, with 3 engine crits, a mech dies. But in this game there are no actual engine crits that occurs from either side torso nor from the center torso.

Get back with us if that ever does happen though, okay?

Of course he's talking about what people have been proposing about the "XL engine normalization". There's a thread on the first page.

[Lugh]

Tristan Winter, on 17 March 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

What if they just got massive agility quirks instead? I kind of like the overall theme where IS mechs are super durable and Clan mechs have terrifying firepower. Jenner IICs and Hunchback IICs have more firepower than most IS heavies. And that's fine, as long as they are fragile.

I don't really like the idea that both sides should have the same structure quirks, the same XL engine rules, the same weapon ranges, etc.

Enough vanilla. Let's have some flavour in this game.

Everytime we get some flavor in this game, a child comes along screaming about how unfair X is and runs it around in the mud until PGI believes the lies or simply wants to stop the crying and it gets changed for the worse.

[GrimRiver]

NextGame, on 18 March 2016 - 03:17 AM, said:

I'm levelling the Orion IICs at the moment and have to say that they are so utterly woeful in terms of survivability that after a few rounds I just log out and dont play anymore.

am not looking forward to doing the highlander iic

Yeah, I'm having that same up hill battle too but I had it soo easy with the HBK IIC.

I was in my SHD-2H(2x AC5's, 3x SRM2's) and rounded a corner
and a orion IIC(2x LPL, 2xAC10) started to shoot at me...

...He was dead within 15 seconds, I lost a shield arm and had a yellow open CT
but the fact is I out brawled him in a medium even when he had first shot on me and he torso twisted during the brawl.

And this wasn't the first, second or third time something like this has happened when I brawled in or against an orion IIC.

All anyone has to do is just aim for the side with the most weapons and 1 and a half alpha into that ST which is crazy easy to do to the orion IIC, other heavies are tough to pull that off on but it's so silly that the orion IIC goes down soo fast
it's almost comical.

[Tristan Winter]

Half Ear, on 18 March 2016 - 03:36 AM, said:

The isXL and cXL have the same rules? (chuckles) Clan mechs may lose part of their firepower with heat/movement penalties while the IS mechs actually die with the loss of a side torso. And that is due to the carry over rule from the boardgame where, with 3 engine crits, a mech dies. But in this game there are no actual engine crits that occurs from either side torso nor from the center torso.

Get back with us if that ever does happen though, okay?

You'll note that I said "the idea", I wasn't implying that it was already a reality. But there are many who believe isXL and cXL engines should work exactly the same way.You'll find threads about it here in the General forum. And there is a wider, general philosophy that IS and Clans should be a similar to each other as possible to make things fair [and utterly boring, as a side effect].

[Lightfoot]

Basically the Mad Cat can do anything the Orion IIc can and gets good speed buff for the 1-3 tons difference in payload. But the Mad Cat has normal toughness for a 75 tonner, so why would you use the flimsy Orion IIc which has fewer hardpoints? That means the Orion IIc needs to be buffed due to it's easy to hit CT.

One issue with the Orion IIc is if you put missiles on it it becomes immense, umissable. The left arm missile slot gets moved to the shoulder for some nerfy reason and this immense mass acts like a giant catcher's mitt, catching any stray fire in the general vicinity, effectively taking 50-70% extra damage. It is normal to lose the missile arm on the first volley aimed at the mech and the left torso on the second volley.

All this points to the need for armor and structure buffs to these areas. At this point these simple fixes have become long overdue.

I just dropped using the Orion IIc and went back to the Mad Cat for the Orion IIc's missions, as soon as I mastered the IIc's and they did not step up in play ability. Why would you nerf yourself with an Orion IIc? It's important to note this because the Orion IIc should be much closer to the Mad Cat's abilities because the Mad Cat gets a lot more hardpoints which translates into higher damage potential, is much tougher, is even faster. Something needs to make the Orion IIc a viable choice for some missions.

[Hit the Deck]

Lightfoot, on 18 March 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

...Why would you nerf yourself with an Orion IIc? It's important to note this because the Orion IIc should be much closer to the Mad Cat's abilities because the Mad Cat gets a lot more hardpoints which translates into higher damage potential, is much tougher, is even faster. Something needs to make the Orion IIc a viable choice for some missions.

Well the Clan ON1 can Gauss Vomit better: ON1-IIC-B. But with low hung weapons if it's your thing.

[Lightfoot]

Hit the Deck, on 18 March 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Well the Clan ON1 can Gauss Vomit better: ON1-IIC-B. But with low hung weapons if it's your thing.

But I can fit 2xGauss on my Mad Cat and back it up with 3x ER Smalls. If I were using a single Gauss I could do the same load-out minus 1 heatsink. Mad Cat A, but the Mad Cat A is able to tank damage well, move the Gauss to the arm and you would likely never lose it before the side torso was lost.

And you can do better with the Mad Cat with almost any build the Orion IIc can manage.

[Scout Derek]

Orion IIC could use a bit of structure quirks, and highlander IIC only needs a bit better mobility, so agility quirks are in order.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lightfoot, on 18 March 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Basically the Mad Cat can do anything the Orion IIc can and gets good speed buff for the 1-3 tons difference in payload. But the Mad Cat has normal toughness for a 75 tonner, so why would you use the flimsy Orion IIc which has fewer hardpoints? That means the Orion IIc needs to be buffed due to it's easy to hit CT.

Hyperbole much? an XL375 is 26.5 tons. XL350 is 22 tons. XL325 is 19 tons.. so its actually a 4.5 to 7.5 ton difference in payload, or 11 tons if you go to XL300.. thats a lot more noticable. Plus the better ability to place ammo due to no locked crits, the Orion imo does dual UAC10 better than the Timber. It can also run 4 large pulse with 24 DHS and an XL340, the Timber cannot run that build either.

Im not saying the Onion is a better mech than the Timber, its hitboxes and uber low mounts sell it short, but its better than you suggest.

[Scout Derek]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 March 2016 - 10:25 AM, said:

Hyperbole much? an XL375 is 26.5 tons. XL350 is 22 tons. XL325 is 19 tons.. so its actually a 4.5 to 7.5 ton difference in payload, or 11 tons if you go to XL300.. thats a lot more noticable. Plus the better ability to place ammo due to no locked crits, the Orion imo does dual UAC10 better than the Timber. It can also run 4 large pulse with 24 DHS and an XL340, the Timber cannot run that build either.

Im not saying the Onion is a better mech than the Timber, its hitboxes and uber low mounts sell it short, but its better than you suggest.

Orion IIC, in short, can carry heavier payloads than a Timber, while the Timber is just more agile with a good amount of pod space.

Not much difference except that just about, save for hitboxes argument.

[Pjwned]

This trend of begging for quirks just because is pathetic.

[GrimRiver]

Pjwned, on 18 March 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

This trend of begging for quirks just because is pathetic.

Is that your personal experience with and/or against orion IIC's or just trolling?

[Chimera_]

Pjwned, on 18 March 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

This trend of begging for quirks just because is pathetic.

Quirks are intended to help make lackluster chassis more competitive vs other chassis. Have you played the ON1-IICs? They are huge and easy to pick apart. The only real counter to this, outside of remodeling them or drastically shrinking them, is to buff their durability.

Edited by Chimera11, 18 March 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Half Ear, on 18 March 2016 - 03:36 AM, said:

The isXL and cXL have the same rules? (chuckles) Clan mechs may lose part of their firepower with heat/movement penalties while the IS mechs actually die with the loss of a side torso. And that is due to the carry over rule from the boardgame where, with 3 engine crits, a mech dies. But in this game there are no actual engine crits that occurs from either side torso nor from the center torso.

Get back with us if that ever does happen though, okay?

you would almost never run an XL in an IS orion anyway.

orion IIC could get a little love in the size department, it is both larger than the IS orion and quirkless.

to me it feels as tho quirks are a little out of hand sometimes. not saying the IS orion is an awesome mech by any measure but its pretty sad that both the orion IIC and highlander IIC aren't even as good as the original mechs.

like i said i think it has alot to do with being slightly oversized in combination with a lack of structure quirks. feels a bit like the awesome before it got quirks.

and i dont get why pgi thought bigger IIC's would somehow be viable in this quirk meta. i get that smaller clan mechs get more out of clan tech because they are already running a deficit of weight but larger clan mechs mostly just get the clan XL since clan weapons also tend to make more heat. (also the absolutely insanely draconian ghost heat on all clan lasers)

idk mostly i feel as tho quirks are a bad balancing mechanic, almost as if PGI should balance IS tech vs Clan tech first then use quirks to help out mechs with problems like poor hitboxes, low mounts or sparse/bad hardpoint arrangements.

Edited by Col Jaime Wolf, 18 March 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Pjwned]

GrimRiver, on 18 March 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

Is that your personal experience with and/or against orion IIC's or just trolling?

It's a trend of everybody begging for more quirks on every single new mech.

"Rifleman is DOA it needs +1,000,000,000 armor on its CT because I'm a scrub who gets focus fired."
"Archer is DOA bad quirks pre-order canceled bluh bluh bloo bloo I'm not a scrub trust me."
"IIC mechs need to be even better so plos gib quirks instead of actually trying to balance mechs without sloppy band aid fixes huehuehuehuaehuaehauehuaehue."

Chimera11, on 18 March 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

Quirks are intended to help make lackluster chassis more competitive vs other chassis. Have you played the ON1-IICs? They are huge and easy to pick apart. The only real counter to this, outside of remodeling them or drastically shrinking them, is to buff their durability.

That's not how quirks are used though.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Pjwned, on 18 March 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

It's a trend of everybody begging for more quirks on every single new mech.

"Rifleman is DOA it needs +1,000,000,000 armor on its CT because I'm a scrub who gets focus fired."
"Archer is DOA bad quirks pre-order canceled bluh bluh bloo bloo I'm not a scrub trust me."
"IIC mechs need to be even better so plos gib quirks instead of actually trying to balance mechs without sloppy band aid fixes huehuehuehuaehuaehauehuaehue."



That's not how quirks are used though.

^^^^^^

exactly quirks were sold to us as a way to help "the badz the worstz of mechs" compete better, but as with any good power creep mechanic it quickly got out of hand.

[wanderer]

Actually, I do run an XL in an Orion. But it's a -VA and designed to fight at range and reasonably over cover (LL/LRM). Even then, it takes a beating.

A similar build on an Orion IIC rapidly leaves you with the main guns gone, though you're still firing your right side at least.

[GrimRiver]

Pjwned, on 18 March 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

It's a trend of everybody begging for more quirks on every single new mech.

"Rifleman is DOA it needs +1,000,000,000 armor on its CT because I'm a scrub who gets focus fired."
"Archer is DOA bad quirks pre-order canceled bluh bluh bloo bloo I'm not a scrub trust me."
"IIC mechs need to be even better so plos gib quirks instead of actually trying to balance mechs without sloppy band aid fixes huehuehuehuaehuaehauehuaehue."



That's not how quirks are used though.

Yeah at the moment they're band-aid fixes and that itself won't be fixed for some time,
so we're gonna need quirks on very under performing mechs for the time being.

But you didn't answer both our questions "Have you used the orion IIC, highlander IIC?"

1 alpha is all that is needed to remove huge ST on the orion IIC, a mech that has the durability of the heaviest medium with the hitboxes of the awesome mech.

The orion IIC is based after the IS version which is known as a mini atlas, only it can't even fight as half as good
with it's only benefit is running the clan XL's.

[STEF_]

Deathlike, on 17 March 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

I don't think the Onion IIC... I mean Orion IIC needs the same level of structure bonuses as its non-IIC/IS counterpart, mostly in part with the Clan XL engine. Same could be said for the Highlander IIC and its counterpart.

Both easily inherit all the aspects of the unquirked variety, but Clan XL does help greatly/significantly in adding more firepower capability... so avoiding any sort of offensive/weapon quirks is necessary.

Hoverjets will still be Hoverjets™ on the Highlander.. regardless of IS or Clan. That ultimately still is an abomination.

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