17 replies to this topic

[SirNotlag]

With the release of the archer there was a massive explosion in topics about how **** lrms are either there no skill, not fun, to OP/completely useless, no way to stop the rain/too many hard counters, cowards weapon/tactical weapon. Nobody can agree on them aside from the fact a lot of people dislike them the way they are.

There is a few people actually proposing ways to change them aside from just complaining but those are usually changing stats like making the clusters tighter or making the missiles move faster. The problem with adjusting stats so LRMs become competitive in the higher tiers just makes them an unstoppable force in the lower tiers.

My idea is to leave lrms alone for now and completely change the way tag works to help with spotting or shooting lrms in general. For those of you who played MW Living Legends its pretty much going to be like that. The tag would no longer help with locking on what it would do instead is direct all allied missiles that don't have locks. This would make it act more like a real laser designator.

What that means is an lrm boat would no longer need a lock to reliably hit a target if they carried TAG themselves or had a spotter with TAG. They could dumb fire the lrms and the tag would change their flight path to where the TAG is hitting. This opens up a lot of interesting uses with LRMs that would differentiate a good LRM boater from a great one. LRMs could be fired in the direction of the enemy prior to leaving cover and then leaving cover and redirecting the missiles onto their opponents limiting face time. It also allows LRMs to be used against an ecm mech that you cant get a lock on, so its no longer a hard counter against LRMs.

Missiles that had a lock prior to being fired would ignore TAG so LRM boats can still rain on a mech of their choosing. If the spotter is bad and pointing the TAG at the dirt then the missiles are just going to hit the dirt not any enemy mechs, this causes some skill to be involved and the chance to miss.

Would this be a lot of work for PGI? absolutely but it would revitalize an entire weapons system that has been the frustration of players for even longer than I've been playing.

Edited by SirNotlag, 18 March 2016 - 04:10 PM.

[Deathlike]

For the sake of argument....

If there are multiple TAGs being used, which would get priority? Assume the LRM user isn't the source... which TAG source is being used?

Even the simplest "closest target" isn't good enough, as it would have to be one in front of the LRM users, and what decision would be made if the targets are equidistant from the LRM user?

The "indirect" issue you're going to face though is when the beam shoots at a target, it can/may hit a friendly.. and it's bad enough when LRM users shoot the back of a teammate.

So, you'd have to lay out all the scenarios and solve those first.

[Johnny Z]

+1 for tag toggle.

[NoiseCrypt]

LRMs are bad when played witouth skill.
LRMs are fine when played with skill.
If LRMs arent fun, then select another weapon type.
If opponent LRMs are OP, then you are doing something wrong.
If the playstyle of opponent LRMs annoy you, then punish them ingame with damage. Dont whine on the forums.

Oh, and for the toppic Dont change the tag, educate the whiners...

[Darth Hotz]

The amount of LRMs are destroying the fun in the game. To many lurmers just keep hiding in the back in their assaults, wasting all the tonnage that would be needed at the front lines and get killed by 36srm jenners then.

To many LRMs and too overpowered lights.

The game is taking a bad road.

Edited by Darth Hotz, 18 March 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[wanderer]

Someone who uses LRMs as an excuse to hide in the backfield is just a terrible pilot, period. Of course, most of them would hide anyway, just picking up whatever the longest range weapons are and "sniping" at 1200m from ridiculous positions. Because they don't feel safe without maximum armor and maximum range, regardless of being useless with both.

Worse, they're literally doing all the wrong things- staying far back from the group, where accuracy is lousy and the odds of getting scout reamed are maximum, because there's nothing between Mr. LRM Atlas and the enemy scouts hearing the free lunch bell. They utterly, parasitically rely on team locks and usually fire with utter disregard for terrain. They make actual missile pilots cry.

They are a waste regardless of weapon type or 'Mech, and are one of the biggest reasons the lack of a real PSR system pains me.

[Novakaine]

What da hell kinda of solution is that - fixing tag.
Go troll somewhere else.
Stop with the Clan.

[diablo595]

Darth Hotz, on 18 March 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

The amount of LRMs are destroying the fun in the game. To many lurmers just keep hiding in the back in their assaults, wasting all the tonnage that would be needed at the front lines and get killed by 36srm jenners then.

To many LRMs and too overpowered lights.

The game is taking a bad road.

The amount of ERLLs are destroying the fun in the game. To many erllers just keep hiding in the back in their assaults, wasting all the tonnage that would be needed at the front lines and get killed by 36srm jenners then.

The game is taking a bad road.

[El Bandito]

Since Tag is by lore infrared, it should be visible in enemy's Heat Vision mode only. That will help the scouts a lot. Plus LRM boats won't have a bright red beam telling everyone to "Shoot at me, I'm here!" when exposed, trying to acquire locks. That may encourage them to get their own locks.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 March 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Wolfways]

The solution to fixing a weapon is not to ignore it and "fix" something else. That sounds like something pgi would do...

[Ascaloth]

The problem is not the LRM, TAG, neither the guy hiding in the back firing missiles on terrain.
The problem is the game matchmaking model. We have competitive players playing with casual players on the same queues, this is wrong. We have Tier 1s and Tier 3s, or 3s and 5s on the same match and this is also wrong!
Put the players where they belong, so they can have fun playing with people with the same mindset and skill set.

I would love to get rid of those "low-skilled cowards", but they also would love to get rid the "meta tryhard" i am. Win/win.

[Seal Farmer]

Problem is good players can make LRMs work, but too many bads use LRM and stand 900m at rear of team and complain why LRMs not doing damage

[JediPanther]

If the tag ever got turned invisible except for heat vision I'd have to put lrms back on my catapults instead of srm 6s. My 72 alpha A1 and 42 alpha C4 still manage one kill minimal a match so whatever. Srm 6s OP!

[Rhent]

No thank you. What would happen is you would have 5 LRM mechs in a match and everyone would designate a light to be a spotter. The light would tell everyone to fire, and halfway in, he'd TAG the mech and all of the missiles in air would. I get the concept but the execution would be horrible.

A better way of fixing LRM's would be if the LRM mech has direct line of sight on the target, the LRM velocity goes from 160 to 500. Leave everything else alone for TAG/NARC/ARTEMIS/ECM/PPC/GROUPING.

[Ultimax]

LRMs are countered by smart play and positioning.

They work in most other situations and get stronger the less coordinated or skilled your opponents are - or if you have massed LRMs sometimes the map can dictate how powerful they are.


They will never be made better, because they have a crutch auto-aim mechanic which is something that necessitates weapons you aim yourself must always be superior.


If we could remove auto-aim and indirect fire from general shared locks, LRMs could be made into strong weapons that compete directly vs. current direct fire weapons.

[SirNotlag]

Wolfways, on 18 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

The solution to fixing a weapon is not to ignore it and "fix" something else. That sounds like something pgi would do...

I'm not saying to ignore it I'm saying to add a new mechanic to it. I feel there is some tweaking that needs to be done to make the larger launchers more viable or to help the weapon system in general I'm just not arrogant enough to think I know what would be best.

Ultimax, on 18 March 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

LRMs are countered by smart play and positioning.

They work in most other situations and get stronger the less coordinated or skilled your opponents are - or if you have massed LRMs sometimes the map can dictate how powerful they are.


They will never be made better, because they have a crutch auto-aim mechanic which is something that necessitates weapons you aim yourself must always be superior.


If we could remove auto-aim and indirect fire from general shared locks, LRMs could be made into strong weapons that compete directly vs. current direct fire weapons.

I just figured adding a new mechanic that didn't really on auto aim could make the weapon system more useful without increasing its actual power..

Edited by SirNotlag, 19 March 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Damia Savon]

Wolfways, on 18 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

The solution to fixing a weapon is not to ignore it and "fix" something else. That sounds like something pgi would do...

One can legit argue that other weapons are overpowered.

Ultimax, on 18 March 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

LRMs are countered by smart play and positioning.

They work in most other situations and get stronger the less coordinated or skilled your opponents are - or if you have massed LRMs sometimes the map can dictate how powerful they are.


They will never be made better, because they have a crutch auto-aim mechanic which is something that necessitates weapons you aim yourself must always be superior.


If we could remove auto-aim and indirect fire from general shared locks, LRMs could be made into strong weapons that compete directly vs. current direct fire weapons.

Dang the stupid is strong with this one.

[SirNotlag]

Deathlike, on 18 March 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

For the sake of argument....

If there are multiple TAGs being used, which would get priority? Assume the LRM user isn't the source... which TAG source is being used?

Even the simplest "closest target" isn't good enough, as it would have to be one in front of the LRM users, and what decision would be made if the targets are equidistant from the LRM user?

The "indirect" issue you're going to face though is when the beam shoots at a target, it can/may hit a friendly.. and it's bad enough when LRM users shoot the back of a teammate.

So, you'd have to lay out all the scenarios and solve those first.

I just figured whichever TAG target point was closest to the missiles at the time would be what they orientated to, within a certain distance from them say 500m. That way they don't go veering off and slam into a rock face because an ally is TAGing an enemy 2km away.

If the mech launching the missiles is using TAG then the missiles always prioritize and try to orientate towards that TAG designation regardless of range.

As for having allied missiles hit friendly mechs <shrug> you cant idiot proof everything, firendlys still shoot each other in the backs with lasers and ballistics too and having the missiles ignore TAG if they had a lock before being fired allows you to ignore a Troll spotter who is purposefully pointing at friendlies.