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Is The Arctic Cheetah Really "broken"?


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#1 Tahribator

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:17 AM

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Rule #1 of Wave 3 owner's club, you don't talk about the Shadow Cat.



Arctic Cheetah is definitely hot topic of discussion among Reddit, forums and in discussions between respected unit members on TS and even Twitch streams. The discussions are really similar of the times when the Spider and Raven were considered "broken" as well, with a lot of broken hitbox accusations flying around. Is it really broken though?

The Light the Clans deserve

Let's face it; the Arctic Cheetah is the first "true" light of the Clans. Previously the Clans were stuck with "medium wannabe" lights which sported a massive armament but lacked the mobility to go up against the best IS has to offer. No more. The Arctic Cheetah is a fast, extremely mobile and well scaled light. On top of that, it showcases the effectiveness of Clan XL on lights. The best of all, it can boat energy weapons which are the real goodies of the Clan arsenal. It is simply good.

. . . and I'm totally fine with it! The Clans deserve a good light and they got one. I normally despise overpowered/broken stuff, but the base ACH hardly falls into that category. It still has to deal with blazing hot Clan lasers or condemn itself to still hot but low range SPL builds. Ever since the hit registration fix early in July the lights are easier to deal with now that the damage registers more reliably. There are no bugs or hitbox issues that prevent it from being dealt with.

What is it then?

I feel like the only problem with the ACH is that it's simply too tough. It takes a stupid amount of damage and attention to bring down. Whole teams chasing an ACH for minutes at the end of a round is not a rare sight. Most of the ACHs I've killed reliably tanked until sub 20% area which is unheard for a light. Most of the IS lights start falling apart at the 60-70% area. It's not rare to hear someone frustrated by seemingly undying ACHs on our TS.

So we have a light that can persist on the battlefield and won't be forced to flee at the first sign of retaliation unlike the IS lights. Obviously when the chassis is so forgiving and survivable, it's not hard to survive until the end of the round with it, therefore racking up great damage. See, it's not that the C-SPLs are broken or anything else, it's just it being silly tough lets it farm damage while tanking like a boss.

Why is it so tough?

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Two factors influence its toughness. First, it's a ridiculously well scaled 'Mech without any geometry faults. It sits somewhere between the Spider and the Firestarter in comparison. It has one of the tiniest torsos in this game, even smaller than a Spider's. Focusing the CT or the ST is almost impossible against a light like this and the ACH won't give up before shedding its arms and torsos. Considering the Clan XL also allows a torso to be blown off before dying, trying to take this thing out by shooting center mass is simply futile. Its limbs are slightly on the chubbier side compared to the Spider though, but still not as big as the Firestarter's.

The second and the biggest factor is its quirks. I'm listing the extra structure buffs it gets below (max amounts): These are absolutely massive buffs for an already well designed light. Compared to this the Spider and the Firestarter get none. Zero. Especially that +15 structure buff makes this a very tough light to leg, the "go to" tactic to get rid of a light. It essentially has the unquirked leg health of a 10 tons heavier Cicada all the while having a smaller leg.


See, pretty much each 'Mech comes with a weak spot in MWO. Be that an oversized/bad hitbox leg, torso, arm; they will quickly fall if you keep working on these spots. These buffs essentially makes this 'Mech a "weak spot free" one. The arm and ST buffs make an already tough chassis almost uncrackable.

Recommendations

My solution is simple: remove extra structure buffs or minimize them. The ACH already enjoys the perks of being fast, the ability to boat Clan lasers and having a full complement of JJs and ECM. I understand PGI wanted to ensure this thing excelled in as many areas as possible, but too much is too much. Remove the extra structure buffs and let its owner try to leverage its other advantages to do damage, rather than simply running in and face tanking entire teams. The extra structure bonuses seem to be copy pasted from the Mist Lynx but in comparison the MLX is such a trainwreck that even giving it Atlas armor wouldn't increase its popularity.

It also lends this 'Mech a huge advantage in 1v1 combat against other lights. Against a Spider you shoot the legs, against a Firestarter you shoot the legs, against a Jenner you shoot the CT . . . what the hell do you shoot when you're against an Arctic Cheetah? Go for the legs and it's going to out leg you. Go for the torso and he'll leg you before you even bring its armor down to red. Going for the arms seem to be the best way of dealing with it since it'll curb the incoming DPS but you'll still need to kill it somehow. When I'm in a top-dog IS light, I simply avoid them. There is no chance of winning against a mildy competent ACH pilot. Heck in even in heavier 'Mechs I think twice before engaging one.

Its tankiness is especially problematic in CW. I've already witnessed battered Clan teams whipping out their Arctic Cheetah trap card at the end of a close match and simply wipe the floor with the IS. In the days of FS being ridiculously good, many Clan players complained that the light rushes were very hard to stop. This is despite them having access to SSRM30 and SSRM36 builds that basically two shot IS lights. How are the IS supposed to deal with this? With SSRM2 boats? Please, they might as well chase them with flamers. Heavy ballistics seem to be the only answer but good luck hitting an ACH consistently with your AC20. Now think about what is going to happen once the paywall is removed the ACH floodgates are opened.

Conclusion

The ACH is a good light 'Mech and this is great news for the Clans. However, it seems like PGI took it a bit too far with unnecessary structure buffs. Toning these buffs down slightly would make the ACH more vulnerable and level out the play field for the lights.

Note: This is taken from my MWO blog.

Edited by Tahribator, 13 August 2015 - 01:19 AM.


#2 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:26 AM

It needs those structure bonuses removed.

For a fast light, it should be on par with any IS tier1 light, soon as its out for Cbills that is the only mech that is going to get played.

Between its lagshield, ECM, and pretty impressive SPL boating, it doesn't need to be as tough to kill as it is.

Why it got quirked up so much right out of the gate.. baffles me when PGI knew right from the start that this was going to be not only the Clan's best light right from the start, but maybe the best light in the entire game.

#3 Scandinavian Jawbreaker

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:28 AM

Great article and I'm glad you put it here as well. I kind of disagree with you on one thing though. I think other lights should be buffed to ACH level instead of nerfing a good chassis.

From a heavy and assault pilot point of view I see them in a good place whereas from the Firestarter cockpit can't even go near them.

#4 theta123

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:29 AM

its not the best light mech of the game, the firestarter still holds that title, but it could use some less massive quirking as it has at the moment

#5 SnagaDance

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:44 AM

Well written analysis!

The quirked structure is wholly unneccesary IMO.

As the first Clan 'true' Light it already had 2 advantages its IS counterparts don't have:

1) The ability to lose a side torso and live, this in itself is already a massive bonus.

2) The ability to take lots of powerful weaponry that has better range and damage. Now usually this is balanced by the heat. Everybody knows you shouldn't play peek-a-boo with a Clan mech as this allows them to cool off. You need to keep the pressure on and not allow them to retreat. But you can't really do that versus a mech so fast. It's already a well accepted tactic for energy boating IS Lights; you run in, fire an Alpha or 2 and retreat to cool off. By following this same tactic the Arctic Cheetah negates one of the main drawbacks of Clan weaponry.

No need for the structure buffs. It's an excellent little Light, and the Clans deserve to have it in their arsenal, but there's no need to make it over the top.

#6 Daelen Rottiger

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:51 AM

In my opinion PGI should focus on role warfare to give the weight classes and chassis certain roles insted of further buffing this game into an arena shooter...

#7 Rear Admiral Tier 6

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:16 AM

Nearly invulvernable crutch mech,whats new?

When i was doing my poptarting thing with a 2 PPC + Gauss Heavy Metal in Tourmaline i noticed a Arctic Cheetah trying to give a rear surprise to our LRM-spammer,it was stationary,and its rear armor facing me,i took aim and fired a alpha -> hit,no register,thats ok,since he did not move or noticed my efforts -> another alpha,rear armor turns deep red (not even the internals) and he runs away.Yes its broken,and this was on EU servers,where i have 60 ping.

Fix hit registration x 1000 before you roll out power creep of this magnitude,thank you.

#8 Sarlic

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:19 AM

Just let the golds enjoy their paywalled mechs a little more.

In my opinion and so are others as i have seen so far PGI likes to release mechs either terrible broken or terrible overpowered and nerf it afterwards.

No offense to anyone, but i would shame myself for piloting this mech in the first place. It's in no doubt in need of a nerf. Either on the hitbox rework or the buffs should be removed --> It has already everything what a clanner needs. ECM, decent punch and a small profile.

Edited by Sarlic, 13 August 2015 - 02:21 AM.


#9 Dino Might

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 03:36 AM

OP, sorry, but ACH is "hardly OP?"

How many other types of lights do you play? This thing is the FS9-A after it got all the small pulse quirks, and now those small pulses are 165m effective. That's 50% better range than the IS version. 165m is not short range. My LCT with 135m quirked small pulse is good enough - 165m would be a dream come true for me. Oh yeah, and you get TC to increase that range.

But they are hotter and have longer duration? Yeah, but they do 2 more damage per shot. 1 more heat for 2 more damage. That's a pretty darn good tradeoff, especially when you can boat 7 of the blasted things. Fact is, C-SmPulse are better than IS counterparts, period. And now, the ACH can only carry 7 of them, so it's not so bad, right? That's 7 extra heat for 14 extra damage. I'll take that every single day and twice a day on Sunday. In fact, if you gave my Locust 6x C-SmPulse, it'd be even more terrifyingly good than it already is.

ACH has every advantage in every category of mech characteristics there is:

Small
Fast
Durable (good hitboxes and good armor)
JJs
High Hardpoints
ECM
Good agility (torso twist, turn radius)
edit: I almost forgot, Clan XL

Other mechs only get some benefits, but have to have tradeoffs.

Thunderbolt - good armor and hardpoints, but easy to hit (profile of a barn door)
Spider - small with good hitboxes but weak armament
Direwolf - heavily armored, heavily armed, but slow and large profile, side torsos easily destroyed
Hellbringer - high hardpoints, good armament, ECM, low durability for comparable heavies

The ACH has zero downsides, none. That's what we call "broken OP."

Edited by Dino Might, 13 August 2015 - 03:46 AM.


#10 FupDup

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 05:16 AM

It's probably safe to remove the energy quirks, because Clan energy is good by default and that's all people use. The missile and ballistic quirks can probably stay since hardly anyone uses those.

I would however actually keep structure quirks on the legs, because even with the current values the mech is easier to leg than CT-core. So, just take off the side torso structure bonuses to help make the upper body a more legit target.


Beyond that, do keep in mind that we don't just have to balance lights against other lights, we also have to balance them against mediums, heavies, and assaults. Yes, that's right, those mechs shouldn't be here for the only purpose of occupying an arbitrary player slot on the team.

#11 Lugh

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 05:21 AM

You were doing so well. It looked like you understood the mech. Then you called for a nerf. Shame on you.

#12 MerryIguana

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 05:30 AM

View PostDino Might, on 13 August 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

The ACH has zero downsides, none.


I think most can agree that its quirks were released too strong, but it is still a light, and that is a downside.

#13 Fitch Buckingston

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:13 AM

View PostTahribator, on 13 August 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:


There are no bugs or hitbox issues that prevent it from being dealt with.



What? In CW one of them got full duration 3xLPL in his back and took zero damage.
From my point of view I really don't care if its a hitbox or a hitreg issue, but this
and the leg buff just makes them ridiculous.

#14 Hades Trooper

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:14 AM

I would say if and when it's decided if it's OP, which to me it isn't as IS have been using those Firestarter brokenness for years now, it's just the shoe being on the other foot but the IS just rage more and long enough they will get there wishes.

they always do, IS is Russ's love child and he'll soon nerf the ACH once the paywall goes away and he's not making buckets from it anymore.

Just like the timber. perhaps they will wait till the next wave of clans are due so people will want to ride the next 1 trick pony to encourage sales

#15 Dysdane

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:15 AM

View PostDino Might, on 13 August 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

OP, sorry, but ACH is "hardly OP?"

How many other types of lights do you play? This thing is the FS9-A after it got all the small pulse quirks, and now those small pulses are 165m effective. That's 50% better range than the IS version. 165m is not short range. My LCT with 135m quirked small pulse is good enough - 165m would be a dream come true for me. Oh yeah, and you get TC to increase that range.

But they are hotter and have longer duration? Yeah, but they do 2 more damage per shot. 1 more heat for 2 more damage. That's a pretty darn good tradeoff, especially when you can boat 7 of the blasted things. Fact is, C-SmPulse are better than IS counterparts, period. And now, the ACH can only carry 7 of them, so it's not so bad, right? That's 7 extra heat for 14 extra damage. I'll take that every single day and twice a day on Sunday. In fact, if you gave my Locust 6x C-SmPulse, it'd be even more terrifyingly good than it already is.

ACH has every advantage in every category of mech characteristics there is:

Small
Fast
Durable (good hitboxes and good armor)
JJs
High Hardpoints
ECM
Good agility (torso twist, turn radius)
edit: I almost forgot, Clan XL

Other mechs only get some benefits, but have to have tradeoffs.

Thunderbolt - good armor and hardpoints, but easy to hit (profile of a barn door)
Spider - small with good hitboxes but weak armament
Direwolf - heavily armored, heavily armed, but slow and large profile, side torsos easily destroyed
Hellbringer - high hardpoints, good armament, ECM, low durability for comparable heavies

The ACH has zero downsides, none. That's what we call "broken OP."


No ACH can boat 7 C-SmPulse.

People who preordered the ACH can boat 6 because they have access to C's right arm which as an extra energy hardpoint. The rest of us are limited to 5.

The FS9-A can boat 8 SmPulse.

If I'm going up against other lights, I'd prefer the ACH (but even then, I try to avoid brawling with an FS9). Against everything else, I'd rather the FS9.

Also, don't forget the ACH's engine is fixed. So you can squeeze a bit more speed out of the FS9 too.

The only other thing that may sway me to the ACH is the ECM. But for straight up pew pew: FS9 all the way.

#16 topgun505

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:42 AM

Dude. That thing is hot as balls with just 6 SPL. 7 would be redonkulous. Heck I have tried pretty much every weapon combo at this point and I've had to reduce it to 5 SPL. You simply will not see many people running 7 SPL.

#17 Dino Might

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:54 AM

View PostDysdane, on 13 August 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:


No ACH can boat 7 C-SmPulse.




http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f8e46f29a7ce217

Can't do what? That's 7 small pulse and a targetting computer.

7 CLAN small pulse - that's 42 damage per alpha.

IS FS9 with 8 small pulse is 32 damage per alpha, at rougly 50m reduced range.

Keep dreaming about how the Cheeto is not as good.

View Posttopgun505, on 13 August 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Dude. That thing is hot as balls with just 6 SPL. 7 would be redonkulous. Heck I have tried pretty much every weapon combo at this point and I've had to reduce it to 5 SPL. You simply will not see many people running 7 SPL.


I agree it runs quite hot, but double basics make it manageable. Heck, you only need to alpha twice to rear core any mech in the game. It's about as hot as the 5 medium laser LCT-1E (I think it's cooler than the 6 medium laser version).

I ran mine with 7 small pulse before I trash-binned it. You don't even need the ECM when you can obliterate everything that stands in your way.

Edited by Dino Might, 13 August 2015 - 06:58 AM.


#18 Viges

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 07:08 AM

View PostMister D, on 13 August 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

It needs those structure bonuses removed.

For a fast light, it should be on par with any IS tier1 light, soon as its out for Cbills that is the only mech that is going to get played.


Don't worry, they'll balance it just in time :rolleyes:

View PostSarlic, on 13 August 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

Just let the golds enjoy their paywalled mechs a little more.

In my opinion and so are others as i have seen so far PGI likes to release mechs either terrible broken or terrible overpowered and nerf it afterwards.


No p2w at all, just early access :rolleyes:

#19 Mystere

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 07:42 AM

Oh! Look! It's just another day with another "Nerf the Arctic Cheetah!" thread.

IS fans seem to be massively butthurt these days just because their Firestarters have met their match.

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Edited by Mystere, 13 August 2015 - 07:42 AM.


#20 Lugh

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 07:56 AM

I hate it when I am bad with a mech. It usually means that I did something wrong. MAYBE if you IS light pilots get over the LOL I PWN everything clan light mentality you've cultivated you will do better.

The GOOD light pilots I see when dropping are having very little trouble dealing with ANYTHING, let alone ACHs





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