20 replies to this topic

[ArmandTulsen]

This map is horribly unbalanced for the north side.

Their assault lance spawn point is terrible, as they move up the ramp and five seconds later they have the enemy right in their face. Wtf?

As well, the terrain advantage from the south side is huge. They can basically cordon off any advance from the north side, while crushing anything from C4/B4. And that cave? Easily countered. It's so far away for a flank manouevre that the whole team has time to react and pull back their firing lines.

In my experience, I've had way more success spawning on the south side. It almost feels like a foregone conclusion.

[AlphaToaster]

If the north side doesn't move into B4 or at least offer some support for the assaults, it's over anyway.

The remaining mechs taking the C3 hill by the drop ship in force and pushing around behind the enemy moving into B4, or moving from their side directly into B4 to reinforce the assaults are both winning strategies I've seen from the North Side.

TL:DR = Don't leave the assault lance hanging. Reinforce them or make a hard push on the enemy flank while they are focused on the assaults.

[dervishx5]

Map is too small for 12v12.

[Juodas Varnas]

dervishx5, on 23 March 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Map is too small for 12v12.

/thread

It worked fine for 8v8 but...

[Tempest Omega]

And this is the Puglandia problem.

The South side team has a natural NASCAR lanes flow towards the North side assault lance, where as the North side NASCAR lanes lead away from their assault lance.

If someone can herd the cats.....umm, encourage the pugs..... to fight their natural NASCAR instincts, you can make it work for the North side.

The thing is that requires someone to lead and others to follow (not one or the other but both) which is no where near a given where as the South side just needs everyone to go with the flow.....

Obviously there can be exceptions, but that is he gist of what I see happen.

[Alistair Winter]

dervishx5, on 23 March 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Map is too small for 12v12.

I would say it's too small for 8v8 as well. Perfect size for 4v4.

[sycocys]

Was -barely- big enough for 8v8.

[kesmai]

on a side note:
i miss the old forest colony sometimes. now you can make fun of me.

[Lynx7725]

Huh. Frozen, which mode? Different mode has different spawns and the lances don't always spawn in the same spot by weight class -- they do shift.

My experience in Frozen Night is that if you spawn on the North side, and you spawn at the up-ramp, you can always turn around and go back up the valley to the other up-ramp. For heavies the distance is just great to join up with the rest of the unit. Just because you are spawned facing a certain direction, doesn't mean you have to move off in that direction.

Also, the north team have certain distinct advantages. They do have a height advantage and if they move fast enough, can get to C4 and have an excellent view of the enemy crossing into the B-line buildings. Since it's so open and the team is uphill, it's actually fairly simple to disrupt this movement and split the enemy team, while the brawlers get into the buildings in B and kill whatever's there. Whoever exert zone of control over C4 tends to have a gross advantage, since they can interdict movement both further down as well as along the dropship ridge.

North team has a bit better natural defensive positions, while South team has a bit better flow into the combat area. Both teams have certain approaches to the game, and neither really has that big an advantage over the other.

[Roadkill]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Their assault lance spawn point is terrible, as they move up the ramp and five seconds later they have the enemy right in their face. Wtf?

Clue: don't move up that ramp. There's a much safer one about 200 meters back down the canyon.

[Lynx7725]

Roadkill, on 23 March 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Clue: don't move up that ramp. There's a much safer one about 200 meters back down the canyon.

Yub-yub. That ramp is great for regrouping with the rest of the team too, since the timing means you tend to emerge as the other lances pass.

[Tarogato]

You could argue it's imbalanced for the south spawn because the north team rushes saddle and picks off your assaults from the rear.


It's actually not imbalanced, it's just annoying and poorly designed.

Roadkill, on 23 March 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Clue: don't move up that ramp. There's a much safer one about 200 meters back down the canyon.

By doubling back, you're taking your assault lance out of the fight for at least a minute, maybe even two, which can be detrimental against an aggressive enemy.

Edited by Tarogato, 23 March 2016 - 12:48 PM.

[sycocys]

kesmai, on 23 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

on a side note:
i miss the old forest colony sometimes. now you can make fun of me.

Old forest was a good map - but again hardly big enough for 8v8.

[Lynx7725]

Tarogato, on 23 March 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

By doubling back, you're taking your assault lance out of the fight for at least a minute, maybe even two, which can be detrimental against an aggressive enemy.

That really depends on the build we are talking about. Taking a Whale loaded with dakka up on the immediate ramp is not a good idea -- it opens into urban and can be easily flanked by enemy mechs. Whereas taking the back ramp gives it a decent height to use all that dakka at a range that is good for that kind of work.

But if you are in say a BoomJager or King Crab with twin AC20s, man you'd be chomping to go up the first ramp to get into the same urban environment that gives your AC40s incredible utility. Each Mechwarrior has to gauge his build and then use the correct pathing. Thinking Man's shooter, right?

Me, I normally run LRM boats. Going up that first ramp is stupid suicide. I double back and get set up in the right place in the team lines.

[Roadkill]

Tarogato, on 23 March 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

By doubling back, you're taking your assault lance out of the fight for at least a minute, maybe even two, which can be detrimental against an aggressive enemy.

Clue: wait for your assaults.

But... but... NASCAR!!!!!eleven!

/facepalm

I never go up that ramp in an assault in a Quick Play match. I always double back and go up the safe one, and I'm never "out of the fight" as you describe. Why? Because PUGs take a couple of minutes to self-organize anyway, and I'm moving the instant the game starts.

So unless someone speaks up pretty much instantly and says "move to C4 immediately to cover our assaults" I'm going to assume that they're going to dawdle around for a minute or two like every PUG match ever before heading for the notch. And while they're doing that, I have plenty of time to get back to and up the safe ramp. Which, by the way, is roughly the same distance to the notch so not only is it safer, but it's also just as fast for today's typical tactics.

[ArmandTulsen]

Come on, nobody protects the assault mechs when pugging. I know because I mostly use assaults. The only other mechs that seem to loosely give a damn about the well being of the team's force power is OTHER ASSAULT MECHS.

[FLG 01]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Come on, nobody protects the assault mechs when pugging. I know because I mostly use assaults. The only other mechs that seem to loosely give a damn about the well being of the team's force power is OTHER ASSAULT MECHS.

While true, you have to be fair. In case of Frozen city it is almost impossible to reliably protect charlie lance if it decides to take the B4-ramp. Bravo lance's field of fire is either blocked by charlie lance or requires positions which often make you the ideal target for enemy focus fire (on hills e.g.). Protecing charlie's flank without exposing bravo to devastating fire is technically possible but requires a lot of aggression and coordination. And in PUG it usually means it's impossible.

In 7 of 10 cases going up the B4-ramp is death. And in the 3 cases it is not, the enemy was usually too timid. I had to learn that the hard way in my King Crab...

[Lynx7725]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2016 - 05:45 PM, said:

Come on, nobody protects the assault mechs when pugging. I know because I mostly use assaults. The only other mechs that seem to loosely give a damn about the well being of the team's force power is OTHER ASSAULT MECHS.

Well, if you are going to rush up the ramp thinking that you are entitled to the protection of other mechs who need time to get into position to assist you, then the others would have to assume you know what you are doing. Not all mechs are suited for the brawling in the streets that the ramp leads to, and even if they are, they need time to get from the spawn point to where you are. And they also need to guard against attacks coming from the dropship ridge.

[Canuck307]

Juodas Varnas, on 23 March 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

/thread

It worked fine for 8v8 but...

I miss 8v8. Way more strategic and fun.

[Clownwarlord]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

This map is horribly unbalanced for the north side.

Their assault lance spawn point is terrible, as they move up the ramp and five seconds later they have the enemy right in their face. Wtf?

As well, the terrain advantage from the south side is huge. They can basically cordon off any advance from the north side, while crushing anything from C4/B4. And that cave? Easily countered. It's so far away for a flank manouevre that the whole team has time to react and pull back their firing lines.

In my experience, I've had way more success spawning on the south side. It almost feels like a foregone conclusion.

This is why I suggest all maps should have a single drop point, while yes this was a cause of some matches only being fought on one single point, but we still have that issue even with separate drop points but now we have players being left out to hang.

If you want to change this so we all drop as one group TWEET RUSS. Last town hall it was brought up that he was willing to listen so please do tweet him about your concern on the subject of separate drop points.

Edited by clownwarlord, 23 March 2016 - 06:45 PM.