133 replies to this topic

[Damia Savon]

Alardus, on 23 March 2016 - 03:56 PM, said:

Thanks for being for nerfing the awesome's original design even more.

The Awesome rarely fires more than 2 PPCs together because of heat concerns so I doubt the new system, which we basically know nothing about, is going to hinder it anymore.

The Awesome is one of those mechs that should have really good PPC heat Gen and velocity quirks. Of course making PPCs good without quirks would be more helpful.

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

3 large lasers too much for you? Can't handle 27 damage? Find a new game. Jesus. What do you want people to take? 2 Machine guns, an AC2, an lrm 10, an SRM 4, and 2 medium lasers?

That would be great.

[VorpalAnvil]

Rampage, on 24 March 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

Any of these consequences would make the "one targeting-one button-one shot" Mechs take more skill and more thought to operate.

Wrong. The same people who whine and cry endlessly today because they are sub par at the game, will still lose to their betters no matter what system is implemented.

[Gas Guzzler]

DivineEvil, on 24 March 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Yeah... and they modified dissipation, which already was inferior considering the increased cooldown rates and durability levels. For any above-average intelligent person, a complete nonsense.

Not really. It was not dependant on cover. There were never a situation where you'd reach that cover and strike at the perpetrator, only to being blown into oblivion by an alpha or two. It would actually turn into a proper brawl, with a sniper being in clear disadvantage. Before the super-effective jump-sniping, the meta was solely on efficient Atlas brawling with second-line fire support.

Lolno.

It consisted of poptarting the **** out of your enemy until they were more or less a couple shots from death and then, only if necessary, moving into finish them off. You must have forgotten the PPC AC5 meta that brought so many tears to this forum?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 March 2016 - 08:57 AM.

[Damia Savon]

Alardus, on 23 March 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Ah, so why don't they just rename the change to "no more alpha strikes". Isn't that what people are most upset over anyway?

Well because "nerf alpha strikes" sounds worse that "heat scale" or "power draw". The latter won't cause all the whiners to come flooding the forums. They will after the change of course.

What will be interesting to see is what the new "power efficient" meta will be. Will there be power efficiency modules to buy? Could be interesting.

[Gas Guzzler]

Damia Savon, on 24 March 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Well because "nerf alpha strikes" sounds worse that "heat scale" or "power draw". The latter won't cause all the whiners to come flooding the forums. They will after the change of course.

What will be interesting to see is what the new "power efficient" meta will be. Will there be power efficiency modules to buy? Could be interesting.

Lol as you support a whiney OP.


All this change is going to do is reinforce the dakka builds that are already strong. If you don't have the tonnage to dakka, then PPFLD as much as you can before hitting the arbitrary damage limit. Done. Let the tears commence (there are always tears no matter what the meta is). Only now build variety is down to where it was in the poptarting age. Well done.

[Gas Guzzler]

The dream of garbage builds all of a sudden becoming viable has got to go. It's not going to happen, and you are still going to get killed in seconds. It's laughable that you guys think this change is going to do anything other than kill mech variety.

[Damia Savon]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

LOL don't make me laugh.

Lasers and Gauss, PPCs and Gauss, AC20 and SRMs, Lasers and SRMs, there are meta builds EVERYWHERE that use more than just lasers. The fact that you (or the many other whiners on the forums) aren't aware of them isn't the game's fault.

It is not that people are not aware of them, it is just that they are not the most efficient metas out there. Lasers weigh the least, are the smallest weapons, plenty of mechs have large numbers of energy hardpoints, plenty of mechs have enough energy quirks and the heat penalty is meaningless for the most part.

MOAR LAZORS is just the easiest meta to run and therefore the one people see the most.

[Koniving]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 March 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Im going to be honest.. I understand why my gaming guild dumped this game before I ever played it now. To me, that game looks awful - we simply want entirely different games.

I think it's possible they dumped it as it made the transition from that to what it is now.

I'm going to assume they dropped it in late 2013, early 2014?
(Also if you only watched the first video; standard heatsinks because doubles didn't exist yet and repair and rearm even if it did exist).

In 2014, it got so bad that an Atlas would be taken down in 4 seconds or less from 2 alpha strikes.
Sometimes a match would start and immediately someone would be picked off from the other starting position.
Half of a team (4 mechs) would be wiped out within the first 2 minutes on most maps, and the rest within a minute after if they weren't hiding.

Thus the "Ghost heat" and so on, to try and fix it through really convoluted ways instead of using the source material to make the fix.

Between the insane alpha strikes, instant pinpoint convergence, near instant kills of assault mechs, complete disregard for the game's problems and bandaids creating further problems as well as This ********... a lot of people quit by 2014. (That's MWO's heat system allowing 30 PPCs to be fired in 18 seconds before 'stopping' me. And the macro wouldn't have anything to do with it; that just made it more fun. That was this game's heat system and it alone. PPCs had a cooldown of 3 seconds at the time.)

Edited by Koniving, 24 March 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Damia Savon, on 24 March 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

It is not that people are not aware of them, it is just that they are not the most efficient metas out there. Lasers weigh the least, are the smallest weapons, plenty of mechs have large numbers of energy hardpoints, plenty of mechs have enough energy quirks and the heat penalty is meaningless for the most part.

MOAR LAZORS is just the easiest meta to run and therefore the one people see the most.

They are the best in certain situations. Would love to see how "the easiest meta" would handle an SRMS brawler in its face. (I already know, the laser vomit guy would get wrecked)

Don't let the public queue fool you. Lasers are prevalent there because they can handle the more common situations well. As soon as you start getting into coordinated play you can dictate what situation you want, so the other loadouts (which are very strong at what they do) have uses.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 March 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[Damia Savon]

Saltychipmunk, on 24 March 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

all the stupid things PGI has been doing to 'fix' energy weapons and alpha strike game play is kind of reason a ton of the old beta players stopped playing the game.

Here is the deal as a player and minor fan of mechwarrior when i put in the effort to make a certain set up heat neutral, i expect that set up to be heat neutral. it should not be impossible to have 4 - 5 -6 large lazers up provided you dedicate your entire build too supporting 4 - 5 -6 large lazers.

it is not like that kind of setup has zero draw backs. it usually means making concessions in the form of speed / or space / or using more dangerous internals (xl engines vs standard engines) shaving off some armor to free up a few more tons of space.

etc.. the downside too all that is ALREADY THERE. it was always there. this whole crap with making things unnecessarily complicated or difficult to use to prevent a certain meta was and still is stupid.

Good Riddance then.... if not having an easy win button is enough to make you not play a game then bye.

Ghost heat was put in to stop builds like you describe. 4-6 LL can cripple or kill a lot of mechs by taking out side torsos at a decent range. The drawbacks in the build itself were not serious enough to prevent people from running them in the first place.

[Cy Mitchell]

VorpalAnvil, on 24 March 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Wrong. The same people who whine and cry endlessly today because they are sub par at the game, will still lose to their betters no matter what system is implemented.

You are almost certainly correct but at least you would have to target them a couple times and push your fire button each time. Maybe it will give them time to learn the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Damia Savon, on 24 March 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Good Riddance then.... if not having an easy win button is enough to make you not play a game then bye.

Ghost heat was put in to stop builds like you describe. 4-6 LL can cripple or kill a lot of mechs by taking out side torsos at a decent range. The drawbacks in the build itself were not serious enough to prevent people from running them in the first place.

It is not an easy win button when your enemy is as equally deadly as you are. It requires you to OUT-THINK your opponent. You know, thinking man's shooter stuff. Forcing people into gimped builds (and completely ruining mechs that were designed to boat energy weapons) isn't fun for anyone, except those who want to get in their lore builds and waltz out into the open to engage each other, oblivious of their surroundings. You can pretty much do that in Tier 4-5 so you should have all you need where you are.

Rampage, on 24 March 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

You are almost certainly correct but at least you would have to target them a couple times and push your fire button each time. Maybe it will give them time to learn the game.

OR insane dakka will obliterate them in a couple seconds.

Either way, newbies come in at Tier 5.. having played in a Tier 4 alt accound, there should be plenty of time to learn the game. Hell if you take the high ground you practically get ignored.

[Widowmaker1981]

Koniving, on 24 March 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

I think it's possible they dumped it as it made the transition from that to what it is now.

I'm going to assume they dropped it in late 2013, early 2014?
(Also if you only watched the first video; standard heatsinks because doubles didn't exist yet and repair and rearm even if it did exist).

In 2014, it got so bad that an Atlas would be taken down in 4 seconds or less from 2 alpha strikes.
Sometimes a match would start and immediately someone would be picked off from the other starting position.
Half of a team (4 mechs) would be wiped out within the first 2 minutes on most maps, and the rest within a minute after if they weren't hiding.

Thus the "Ghost heat" and so on, to try and fix it through really convoluted ways instead of using the source material to make the fix.

Between the insane alpha strikes, instant pinpoint convergence, near instant kills of assault mechs, complete disregard for the game's problems and bandaids creating further problems as well as This ********... a lot of people quit by 2014. (That's MWO's heat system allowing 30 PPCs to be fired in 18 seconds before 'stopping' me. And the macro wouldn't have anything to do with it; that just made it more fun. That was this game's heat system and it alone. PPCs had a cooldown of 3 seconds at the time.)

I started playing in around october 2013, when i started the HGN-733C was considered the top mech, i think and poptarting was in full flow. They had stopped well prior to that, unsure when. In fairness, we were always a MMO guild so this would have been a bit of a departure anyway. And, tellingly, they all say it was a bad game from the beginning. Guild usually started games from beginning of beta (i was on a long break from all online gaming at that point to rebuild my social life. MMOs are a bad thing, for me)

I dont have the same idea of what a good game is to you, this is pointless. The game you showed in those videos .. no. What we have now is SO much better, in my opinion, which is all this is.

Im going to stop arguging with people about how things should be done, because ive realised we want totally different outcomes.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 March 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Damia Savon]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 March 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Lol as you support a whiney OP.


All this change is going to do is reinforce the dakka builds that are already strong. If you don't have the tonnage to dakka, then PPFLD as much as you can before hitting the arbitrary damage limit. Done. Let the tears commence (there are always tears no matter what the meta is). Only now build variety is down to where it was in the poptarting age. Well done.

I hate laser vomit as much as the next sane person. It is just boring. Since I don't know what the new system is exactly going to be like, I am not prejudging it. I think too many people are just speculating and making assumptions about how it is going to work and then crying about it. I prefer to wait until more details come out before sobbing in my cheerios or condemning Russ to heck.

[Gas Guzzler]

Damia Savon, on 24 March 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

I hate laser vomit as much as the next sane person. It is just boring. Since I don't know what the new system is exactly going to be like, I am not prejudging it. I think too many people are just speculating and making assumptions about how it is going to work and then crying about it. I prefer to wait until more details come out before sobbing in my cheerios or condemning Russ to heck.

When the purpose is to limit alpha strikes (Russ's example was 30 damage) it is incredibly obvious what that will lead to: 30 damage PPFLD alpha strikes and mass dakka (Mauler, Dire Wolf). Lights will be relatively unchanged at 30 damage laser alphas, mediums will do the 3 LL or 2 LPL thing, or will bring a couple of PPCS maybe depending on how the buffs go. 4x SRM6 brawlers will have to chain fire their srms which means they can't roll damage as well anymore, and you will end up with lower TTK across the board because people have to stare more, and the DPS flying around is going to be higher than it is now as people favor ballistics over laser vomit.

To think otherwise is blind optimism.

[Damia Savon]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 March 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

It is not an easy win button when your enemy is as equally deadly as you are. It requires you to OUT-THINK your opponent. You know, thinking man's shooter stuff. Forcing people into gimped builds (and completely ruining mechs that were designed to boat energy weapons) isn't fun for anyone, except those who want to get in their lore builds and waltz out into the open to engage each other, oblivious of their surroundings. You can pretty much do that in Tier 4-5 so you should have all you need where you are.



OR insane dakka will obliterate them in a couple seconds.

Either way, newbies come in at Tier 5.. having played in a Tier 4 alt accound, there should be plenty of time to learn the game. Hell if you take the high ground you practically get ignored.

Tier shaming really? My Tier is low because I cannot play this game 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. I'll reach Tier 1 eventually as will everyone else. I'd likely move up faster but I've had my account too long. Lots to overcome.

Sorry but I do not see everyone running the same weapon set ups as a good thing. Diversity in weapon systems is a good thing. Relying on just a few is boring. Pushing just one type of set up and one playstyle is dull.

Mechs are not "gimped" if they are performing their designed role. There were very few laser boats in the TT game. Almost all of the "all lasers" mechs used a variety of lasers.

Walking into the open is generally silly but so is hiding all the time as well.

[TexAce]

Koniving, on 24 March 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Before pilot skill trees really ****** things up... it was exactly this.
Enjoy this brawl between two Battlemechs.




There was a time, early 2013 and before then, when cover was 'part' of gameplay but it wasn't a pop-and-squat shooter.

Only the stupid would alpha strike.
After double heatsinks:


Note lack of Alpha among...well everything?
At the same time, we had DELAYED CONVERGENCE... which was an anti-pinpoint mechanic which could cause some or ALL of your firepower to be lost... as well as other things (lack of lag compensation), so chain firing was literally superior to alpha strikes.

Whats this game called?! I want to play this!!! Oh the memories....

Edited by TexAce, 24 March 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Damia Savon, on 24 March 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Tier shaming really? My Tier is low because I cannot play this game 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. I'll reach Tier 1 eventually as will everyone else. I'd likely move up faster but I've had my account too long. Lots to overcome.

Sorry but I do not see everyone running the same weapon set ups as a good thing. Diversity in weapon systems is a good thing. Relying on just a few is boring. Pushing just one type of set up and one playstyle is dull.

Mechs are not "gimped" if they are performing their designed role. There were very few laser boats in the TT game. Almost all of the "all lasers" mechs used a variety of lasers.

Walking into the open is generally silly but so is hiding all the time as well.

Im not tier shaming, just stating the fact about the experience in those tiers giving people more leeway in what builds they bring. Nothing to do with you.

I want diversity too, that is why I don't want the diverse meta we have now (you are wrong if you think it is all lasers, that is a fact, you can ask any high level player if the only meta is lasers, and they will tell you no) to be ruined and turned into PPFLD and dakka or GTFO. Remember when it was CTF/HGN/VTR only? That sucked.

Most people don't hide the whole time, games differ a lot but typically require lots of positioning and movement, not hiding.

We have diversity now, the only weapons not represented in competitive play are LRMS and machine guns, people even try to bring flamers.

[DivineEvil]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

Do you not remember the poptart era before Clans, or did you just block that out of your mind?

I have a question for you - are you a moron?

It is a regular occurence when people take the argument out of context of the discussion, but taking a part of the argument out of context of the same paragraph is a display of rare intellectual inferiority.

Quote

Or the short era of 4 PPC Stalkers before that? That playstyle is exactly why ghost heat was introduced in the first place.

The ghost heat was never necessary. All it would take is to reduce the heat capacity one way or another, so that 4-6 alphas would overheat you beyond effective measures. Besides, such argument is pathetic, as now even some mediums are capable of producing same or higher alpha-strikes, than those 4 PPCs.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 March 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

Lolno.

It consisted of poptarting the **** out of your enemy until they were more or less a couple shots from death and then, only if necessary, moving into finish them off. You must have forgotten the PPC AC5 meta that brought so many tears to this forum?

Same question - are you a moron?

Besides, the poptart meta was not just about cover-play. It was also about highly synergized FLD weapons, unchecked JJs without any penalties, generally lower hardpoint counts and unreliable hitreg on most weapons but PPCs and AC/5s. It was terrible, sure, but at least heavier weapons prevailed over lighter ones, not the opposite that we have now.

[Bud Crue]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 March 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

3 large lasers too much for you? Can't handle 27 damage? Find a new game. Jesus. What do you want people to take? 2 Machine guns, an AC2, an lrm 10, an SRM 4, and 2 medium lasers?

Sorry the quote above is from page 1.

I think this is exactly what a lot of TT folks would like to see. Some folks see this entire game as a violation of what BT and MW is supposed to be. My views are somewhat conflicted now, but I used to be one of them

(Cranky old guy tirade to follow):

On the one hand I too once viewed MWO with a bit of derision with its failure to provide any game play value to classic BT stock builds (yes you can run them, but you are clearly at a disadvantage given the game mechanics). Now however, after a year of refusing to "play ball" with the meta, I have finally come to the cusp of learning/accepting how to play the game effectively (competently? adequately? Okay maybe just not terribly?) within the current mechanics.

Yes, I admit it:
I have come to understand and even occasionally play meta builds. To understand the need to twist and spread damage. To sword and board; to Alpha and shield. Blake and Kerensky help me, I finally get "it". I get how to play MWO and I am finally even starting to enjoy it. I am old, I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, and suborn as hell; but after a year of playing this game I finally get it.

Now however, it sounds like they are going to change a core mechanic of the game and I am not sure how I feel about that. Am I now going to have to take another year to re-learn how to do this? The new system may be an improvement, somehow. But atm I don't see how. For example, the dreaded 3LPL 4M BK build that all the clanners holler about...that's just 7 hard points and the expectation from the above posts seems to be that the new system will neuter that build (and some seem to think that is not only acceptable, but ideal). From my perspective, it is hard enough for an average player to use all the hardpoints on a mech like that, with just the heat mechanics at play, yet now we need another mechanic to further hobble it? I mean what is such a system going to do to the Nova or a Top Dog?

I am just not sure I like the sound of introducing a mechanic that not only hobbles certain mechs game play potential, but also further messes with my ability to build cool mechs (which is probably 40% of my enjoyment of the game, and why I have no problem dropping $ for 3-4 mastery packs of a single chassis just to build a bunch of different versions and then play them all). Thus far from what I have read, it seems like the new system will do both, and frankly I am feeling a wee bit to old to relearn how to appreciate this sort of thing.

(End cranky tirade. Please find your way to the nearest exit of my lawn. Thank you.)

Edited by Bud Crue, 24 March 2016 - 10:03 AM.