183 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

Random thought of the day: NKVA single handedly forced community warfare to be renamed faction warfare. Community warfare implies some kind of intrinsic hostility must exist and people thus should be allowed to RP it(or not?). Mad Props

also,

This thread is rich in sodium chloride tears

Adamski, on 04 April 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

9. Sweet salty tears, they are delicous

Edited by Kin3ticX, 06 April 2016 - 01:42 AM.

[Chef Kerensky]

Communities infight all the time, just look at natural ecosystems

CW got renamed because there's no community left in the first place

[MischiefSC]

Chef Kerensky, on 07 April 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Communities infight all the time, just look at natural ecosystems

CW got renamed because there's no community left in the first place

We have a community.

It's dysfunctional but it's here. "Community" doesn't imply people who like each other. Have you ever had neighbors?

[Lucian Nostra]

You can always smell bullsh**t when one faction start spouting the "We win because we play better" nonsense, clans did it early on and now the IS is trying to claim it's all skill.

[MischiefSC]

IS doesn't 'play better'. Does have the bulk of units who are finishing up mechbay tours. Also we have fewer terribad pugs at the moment - wasn't always so but it is currently. While I don't consider quirks a substitute for balance by any stretch at least they give some vague direction for how to build a mech that isn't designed to fail. Not true of Clan mechs - there are so many bad Clan designs out there. SO MANY. a LB5X, CERLL, CERSML, SSRM4 Kit Fox (I've seen it in the wild) is literally about as useless if not more so than a 6 flamer Stalker. It's a joke build that someone is trying to take seriously. At least 30% if not more of the TBRs I see in CW matches are LRM boats. That's another great example of a troll build that people think is serious. LRM ACH too. I'm not kidding when I say about half the Clan mechs I see when it's anything but a decent unit are bad mechs. Both when I play as Clans and against Clans.

Due to the nature of omnipods and lightweight Clan weapons as well as the variety of BAD weapons for Clans coupled with 2 years of having OP mechs that could perform and carry even with bad builds there are people playing Clans who are very dedicated to being very bad at the game. They blame their failure on balance when balance is the closest it's ever been.

It's rare to see someone with a 3xBK deck - I've never seen it so far. Generally 1 BK in a deck, possibly 2, not 3. Even that's only an issue when you've got 12 people running 12 BKs together on a cool map. Conversely 12 TBRs or 12 EBJ/HBRs is *standard* for Clans. Clans can still drop a stronger deck on average and units playing Clans do so. Clan pugs and bad Clan units just don't, and generally won't.

Here's another example - several good units have put a lot of work into trying to train up Clan pugs and players and have tried to do so for months. These attempts have met with universal failure. Conversely several IS factions have put effort into training their factions up - Kurita and FRR being prime examples. They have largely succeeded.

Tons of IS players complained about broken IS vs Clan balance for the last 2 years. Reams of posts, rivers of tears. The difference is that they still showed up and played. That the bulk of Clan players flounced, threw an absolute wobbler, filled their diapers and left in a huff *because the tech got balanced* really says all that needs to be said. They actively proved all those posts and tears from IS players talking about how weak, shallow and inherently cowardly those Clan players were, that they only played Clans because they had an advantage.

That's what makes this all so funny. As much whining and mud-slinging as went on back when Clans were OP, as bitter and insulting as stuff got....

The IS players were largely right. The bulk of Clan players actually were only willing to play when the game was broken in their favor. The can't even handle balanced, not to mention a complete flip. Every negative post, every insult, all the mud-slinging was actually right for the majority of people. That's what makes all this so funny.

[Depressing-Fire]

Chef Kerensky, on 07 April 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Communities infight all the time, just look at natural ecosystems

CW got renamed because there's no community left in the first place

Iron Chef Kerensky cooking up some hot truth here in kitchen stadium.

[Natural Predator]

My two cents as a drop commander right now. I feel that the learning curve is currently steeper with new clan pilots as mistakes are less forgiving than say a pilot who is rolling a new black night for instance. Take the hellbringer for example, if you get focused your done. But with learned correct positioning and some basic learning about is mechs you can be very effective in a laser vomit hellbringer for instance.

The only real beef I have with inner sphere mechs is the crazy short burn duration. I feel that the burn duration should be similar to clan mechs.

Other than that it's team comp or nah

[Lucian Nostra]

MischiefSC, on 10 April 2016 - 11:57 PM, said:

Tons of IS players complained about broken IS vs Clan balance for the last 2 years. Reams of posts, rivers of tears. The difference is that they still showed up and played. That the bulk of Clan players flounced, threw an absolute wobbler, filled their diapers and left in a huff *because the tech got balanced* really says all that needs to be said. They actively proved all those posts and tears from IS players talking about how weak, shallow and inherently cowardly those Clan players were, that they only played Clans because they had an advantage.

That's what makes this all so funny. As much whining and mud-slinging as went on back when Clans were OP, as bitter and insulting as stuff got....

The IS players were largely right. The bulk of Clan players actually were only willing to play when the game was broken in their favor. The can't even handle balanced, not to mention a complete flip. Every negative post, every insult, all the mud-slinging was actually right for the majority of people. That's what makes all this so funny.

Bulk of IS threw a fit and went into IS vs IS only combat leaving few to play vs clans. The IS didn't exactly grin and bear it like your suggesting they did. The damage done to Clan player base goes further back than the more recent closer balanced games to when we had the straight up super quirked IS machines after just eating streams of nerfs. Warranted or not just sitting through a barrage of nerfs is never fun

edit: I will say one thing you did mention is bad clan builds, yeah well IS had trash builds too than everything got quirked and IS mechs pretty much build themselves these days, hard to really screw up an IS mech

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 11 April 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Lucian Nostra, on 11 April 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Bulk of IS threw a fit and went into IS vs IS only combat leaving few to play vs clans. The IS didn't exactly grin and bear it like your suggesting they did. The damage done to Clan player base goes further back than the more recent closer balanced games to when we had the straight up super quirked IS machines after just eating streams of nerfs. Warranted or not just sitting through a barrage of nerfs is never fun

edit: I will say one thing you did mention is bad clan builds, yeah well IS had trash builds too than everything got quirked and IS mechs pretty much build themselves these days, hard to really screw up an IS mech

The people who stayed IS vs IS were not actually enough to fill matches, so I wouldn't say 'majority'. I know, I spent all of CW1 and 2 as Davion. Trying to get our own fights on the Clan border was really a big part of what drove the push up into Kurita territory that turned out so poorly for Davion/Marik in CW1. There were a lot of units that effectively only ever dropped defense on IS worlds vs Clans.

You absolutely can screw up an IS mech, just not as bad as a Clan mech. I don't have a way to put LRMs on a Firestarter or people probably would. That's the IS/Clan difference. People build mechs against the quirks but it's less common; most quirks favor what generally works well and that provides some direction to people.

You'll still see LRMs on a Marauder along with an AC20 and some medium lasers sometimes. However you're unlikely to see someone put ERLLs and SPLs and an LB10X on the same mech - which is the sort of thing that happens on Clan mechs.

I blame omnipods. If there's one thing Clan mechs prove is that when provided more freedom of choice for mech design (lets be honest, engine/endo/ff isn't freedom of choice. It's gotta-haves and can't-haves) people will choose to do stupid stuff.

I have about 2k drops in pub/group queue in my TBRs, I have a stable of Clan mechs too. The difference is that I (and a lot of people) were not upset about the 'nerfs'. They were upset that it took 2 years to get them. Balance in this game has been clownshoes pants-on-head broken for 2 YEARS. We've known is was broken, discussed how broken it was and went over the broken details ad nauseum and PGI ignored it for 2 years then finally decided to go ahead and fix it over the course of 6 months.

Quirks are still no substitute for balance. I'd love to toss all quirks and just better balance weapons. That includes nerfs to some IS stuff and buffs to some Clan stuff, especially all the bad Clan mechs. It's worth mentioning though that the Clan bad mechs are STILL better than their bad IS counter-parts. That's what I hate about quirks - good quirks on one variant for one loadout is not 'balance'. Do most people even know how many Dragon variants there are? One of them, the 1N, was great for a couple of months. You'd do better in a Kit Fox than most the Dragon variants right now.

Currently though? If you're not two comp teams of near equal skill running synergy decks you're not going to see a difference in IS vs Clans. It's currently about where the units are. That and most the Clan players are sulking. I'm of the opinion of good - let them go. They'll be replaced steadily and eventually with people who want to git gud and play gud and will put in the effort.

[Vxheous]

MischiefSC, on 11 April 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

The people who stayed IS vs IS were not actually enough to fill matches, so I wouldn't say 'majority'. I know, I spent all of CW1 and 2 as Davion. Trying to get our own fights on the Clan border was really a big part of what drove the push up into Kurita territory that turned out so poorly for Davion/Marik in CW1. There were a lot of units that effectively only ever dropped defense on IS worlds vs Clans.

You absolutely can screw up an IS mech, just not as bad as a Clan mech. I don't have a way to put LRMs on a Firestarter or people probably would. That's the IS/Clan difference. People build mechs against the quirks but it's less common; most quirks favor what generally works well and that provides some direction to people.

You'll still see LRMs on a Marauder along with an AC20 and some medium lasers sometimes. However you're unlikely to see someone put ERLLs and SPLs and an LB10X on the same mech - which is the sort of thing that happens on Clan mechs.

I blame omnipods. If there's one thing Clan mechs prove is that when provided more freedom of choice for mech design (lets be honest, engine/endo/ff isn't freedom of choice. It's gotta-haves and can't-haves) people will choose to do stupid stuff.

I have about 2k drops in pub/group queue in my TBRs, I have a stable of Clan mechs too. The difference is that I (and a lot of people) were not upset about the 'nerfs'. They were upset that it took 2 years to get them. Balance in this game has been clownshoes pants-on-head broken for 2 YEARS. We've known is was broken, discussed how broken it was and went over the broken details ad nauseum and PGI ignored it for 2 years then finally decided to go ahead and fix it over the course of 6 months.

Quirks are still no substitute for balance. I'd love to toss all quirks and just better balance weapons. That includes nerfs to some IS stuff and buffs to some Clan stuff, especially all the bad Clan mechs. It's worth mentioning though that the Clan bad mechs are STILL better than their bad IS counter-parts. That's what I hate about quirks - good quirks on one variant for one loadout is not 'balance'. Do most people even know how many Dragon variants there are? One of them, the 1N, was great for a couple of months. You'd do better in a Kit Fox than most the Dragon variants right now.

Currently though? If you're not two comp teams of near equal skill running synergy decks you're not going to see a difference in IS vs Clans. It's currently about where the units are. That and most the Clan players are sulking. I'm of the opinion of good - let them go. They'll be replaced steadily and eventually with people who want to git gud and play gud and will put in the effort.

AW0L has finished MRBC for the season and will soon be back in CW (FW) to be told by a random bad how to suck at the game (somehow we always get that one guy trying to order us around when we're the ones that dropped the 8 man).

In terms of IS vs Clan balance, I still find I have more fun playing Clans in CW/FW, but pug/group queue I 90% of the time drop in IS mechs.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 11 April 2016 - 11:59 PM.

[iLLcapitan]

Some people are just blinded by their own agenda.
Still, some brave warriors keep on fighting these windmills.
Ebon Jag shrugs and Timby jumps into the lake.
...
Would love to play clan again before the reset... Mostly whining pugs there atm, so more beef for myself plus those delicious insta drops, damn I'm HUNGRY.

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 11 April 2016 - 11:57 PM, said:

AW0L has finished MRBC for the season and will soon be back in CW (FW) to be told by a random bad how to suck at the game (somehow we always get that one guy trying to order us around when we're the ones that dropped the 8 man).

In terms of IS vs Clan balance, I still find I have more fun playing Clans in CW/FW, but pug/group queue I 90% of the time drop in IS mechs.

Yeah but when was the last time a GOOD/FUN Clan mech dropped?

So if the Kodiak hit tomorrow you'd leave it in the shop to level up Riflemen and Archers?

[Vxheous]

MischiefSC, on 12 April 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

Yeah but when was the last time a GOOD/FUN Clan mech dropped?

So if the Kodiak hit tomorrow you'd leave it in the shop to level up Riflemen and Archers?

Yeah, that's true I guess, but I didn't buy a single unseen pack. I think I just prefer the IS LPL in scrub queue

[MischiefSC]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 12 April 2016 - 03:12 AM, said:

Yeah, that's true I guess, but I didn't buy a single unseen pack. I think I just prefer the IS LPL in scrub queue

Scrub queue? I really enjoy the Warhammer in scrub queue. 4xAC5 Black Widow or LPLs/MLs on the others. The 3R Marauder with 3AC5s and MLs is also a lot of fun, like a baby 3E Banshee.

I actually run the TBR with 2xUAC5s, 5CERMLs in pug queue. It can be a lot of fun and it's a good departure from the standards. The biggest issue I have with Clan mechs is that there's only 3 or 4 that are really good and fun to play and if you do that non-stop in CW the magic burns out.

[Deathlike]

Sometimes it makes me wonder.

We have a solo queue where teamwork is non-existent.

We have group queues and CW/FW that has teams "attempting" to work together.

PGI has ironically and wrongly tried catering to the solo player - the people who try to rambo everything themselves - using everyone else as their armor to pad their own K-D ratio, and not so much their W-L ratio. These same people get wrecked by good players and teams... occasionally accusing them of using hacks or "using teamwork" (because, who knew that was OP?).

This same player continues failing to adapt and figure out the best way to win... not clinging onto fragile beliefs like "eff the meta" or "my build is superior" (aka running LRMs or running stock/frankenbuilds) while being the first one to run into the gates of the base in FW/CW w/o any thought and consideration for what the team actually needs.


No, of course it's easier to complain.. because "my opponents touched me in bad places" is the goto reaction instead of "wait, what am I doing wrong?"


As long as solo players want to do their own thing, they will continue to repeat their self-fulfilling prophecies. It's tough enough as it is trying to help people learn to play the game.

If you aren't "that guy", then you SHOULD take feedback seriously. Noone is even asking you to join a unit - they simply want you to join their TS (or faction TS hub) for some tips, feedback, and whatever people can reasonably give. I mean, if you don't want help - that's OK... you're just going to make it harder on yourself.

The #1 reason a team fails in CW/FW is primarily refusing to work with others. There's nothing else that beats that... other than just beating themselves because "they knew better" and yet "did their own thing".


So, this won't change regardless of IS or Clan... it's people refusing to listen, and there's nothing else to say really.

People want to complain and not get a clue? Well... that's on you.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 April 2016 - 06:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 12 April 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Sometimes it makes me wonder.

We have a solo queue where teamwork is non-existent.

We have group queues and CW/FW that has teams "attempting" to work together.

PGI has ironically and wrongly tried catering to the solo player - the people who try to rambo everything themselves - using everyone else as their armor to pad their own K-D ratio, and not so much their W-L ratio. These same people get wrecked by good players and teams... occasionally accusing them of using hacks or "using teamwork" (because, who knew that was OP?).

This same player continues failing to adapt and figure out the best way to win... not clinging onto fragile beliefs like "eff the meta" or "my build is superior" (aka running LRMs or running stock/frankenbuilds) while being the first one to run into the gates of the base in FW/CW w/o any thought and consideration for what the team actually needs.


No, of course it's easier to complain.. because "my opponents touched me in bad places" is the goto reaction instead of "wait, what am I doing wrong?"


As long as solo players want to do their own thing, they will continue to repeat their self-fulfilling prophecies. It's tough enough as it is trying to help people learn to play the game.

If you aren't "that guy", then you SHOULD take feedback seriously. Noone is even asking you to join a unit - they simply want you to join their TS (or faction TS hub) for some tips, feedback, and whatever people can reasonably give. I mean, if you don't want help - that's OK... you're just going to make it harder on yourself.

The #1 reason a team fails in CW/FW is primarily refusing to work with others. There's nothing else that beats that... other than just beating themselves because "they knew better" and yet "did their own thing".


So, this won't change regardless of IS or Clan... it's people refusing to listen, and there's nothing else to say really.

People want to complain and not get a clue? Well... that's on you.

Quoted and self-liked just so I could like this whole post a second time.

[Charles Sennet]

One thing's for certain... IS players outnumber Clan players so a post like this will generate a lopsided response which in no way reflects reality. Clans simply have no answer to waves of Black Knights and Atlases. There are simply too many hit points (the BK has 111 points of extra structure alone). I could have probably lived with all those extra HP's if the heat tables had stayed the way they were. But to give a side with both more HP's AND better DPS is a recipe for imbalance in a game like this. The hard truth... the ROI of Clan mechs many purchased with real $$$ has declined dramatically. Sure, they were OP, but now they don't feel like Clan mechs anymore. After so many nerfs, I can't escape the feeling victim of bait-and-switch. PGI sold the TBR-D with a 5% bonus to heat generation so I bought 3, at $24 each, for my CW deck. Then, a few months later, gone were the quirks I had paid to get and in came the nega-quirks. I hope and pray they don't do anything else, like say, to the Kodiak which is a mech that many IS players might complain about when it arrives. We'll see.

[Adamski]

Charles Sennet, on 12 April 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

One thing's for certain... IS players outnumber Clan players so a post like this will generate a lopsided response which in no way reflects reality. Clans simply have no answer to waves of Black Knights and Atlases. There are simply too many hit points (the BK has 111 points of extra structure alone). I could have probably lived with all those extra HP's if the heat tables had stayed the way they were. But to give a side with both more HP's AND better DPS is a recipe for imbalance in a game like this. The hard truth... the ROI of Clan mechs many purchased with real $$$ has declined dramatically. Sure, they were OP, but now they don't feel like Clan mechs anymore. After so many nerfs, I can't escape the feeling victim of bait-and-switch. PGI sold the TBR-D with a 5% bonus to heat generation so I bought 3, at $24 each, for my CW deck. Then, a few months later, gone were the quirks I had paid to get and in came the nega-quirks. I hope and pray they don't do anything else, like say, to the Kodiak which is a mech that many IS players might complain about when it arrives. We'll see.

clan players have bigger alphas, faster mechs, and longer range. Figure it out, and play to your strengths.

[MischiefSC]

A BK only has an extra 111 pts if you shoot every part of it. It still dies with 1 ST loss, unlike every Clan mech.

I get that people paid for the Clan packages because they thought they were buying OP mechs - same reason people are buying Oxides now. So people feel like they were paying to 'help' win (not so much pay to win) buy buying OP mechs for an advantage.

Which everyone got, for 2 years if they bought the TBR at release. The first year of which it was stupid clownshoes OP.

So you also have the people who take the 'Clans are supposed to be OP' tact, which has been answered and beaten down repeatedly here and elsewhere. The simplest answer is 'even the game developers ended up tossing that out with the rest of the garbage for a 1 to 1 balance on tech'. The BT TT game evolved to be 1 to 1 tech. Just because they made mistakes along the way doesn't mean we're obligated to repeat them.

Everyone got what they paid for. Game balance isn't 'bait and switch'. Buying something that's OP as **** isn't locking yourself into broken mechs. Ask anyone who bought the ERPPC-vomit Thud.

The Atlas rush works against disorganized groups - so does everything else. Don't get inside 300m and they're pretty helpless. Also most people strip leg armor on their Atlases and pack the legs with ammo (ACs+SRMs gotta put it somewhere). Also, shoot the head. Atlas is also pretty easy to cockpit shot. It's not somehow easier to beat a 1200 ton wave as an IS team than a Clan team - it's a big risk though given that if you don't all but carry the match in 2 waves you're boned.

What I find funny is the attitude of 'Clans have no response to 12 BKs'. Yes, yes they do. It's the exact same response the IS has had to 12xTBRs for the last year. Focus fire, coordinate, get better. If you're not a comp team playing against another comp team the performance difference between a BK and a TBR is invisible. If you're not good enough to exploit a fraction of a second burn time difference with your LPLs to an advantage while simultaneously moving so well you avoid a 50% disadvantage on range you're not seeing the difference.

To wit, if you're not competing seriously in Division C or better in MRBC then you are probably not measurably better in a BK than a TBR.

There's just never been an answer to 12xTBR/EBJ/HBRs before except for running 12x assaults. Now the IS can run 48 heavies and be pretty evenly matched with 48 Clan heavies. If you've been playing with broken OP mechs for so long that seems 'unfair' then you should reevaluate your perceptions. That's not a game balance problem, it's a game balance success. The first in a long time.

[Pugger]

I feel like balance is quite good ATM. The clans are running a little too hot IMO, I'd like to see a bit of a boost in heat sync efficiency for clan, but otherwise it's very equal right now.

The only unbalanced mech seems to be that splat Jenner...