But: 12 JJ (Spider example) : 72 or 96 meters high, 180 or 360 meters forward! (Takes 12 seconds to achieve this).
.....yeah, I'd much prefer things get buffed to medium JJ level than ever see this happen. This wouldn't make the Spider any better with 12 JJs, and in fact would actually make it worse because you have to wait longer to reach your max height which means during that entire time you aren't firing (12 seconds on a mech that already lack firepower).
Then you have the problem of making 1 JJ pretty much a solid thing for any brawler because while you can't bunny hop much terrain with 1 JJ currently, with yours you could easily do that, even without momentum. You leave little reason for any mech to carry more than 2 or 3.
Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 March 2016 - 02:40 PM.
LocationHiding in the periphery, from Bounty Hunters
Posted 24 March 2016 - 02:41 PM
Koniving, on 24 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:
Simpler fix.
All jumpjets produce X amount of vertical distance + horizontal distance. Say 6 to 8 meters height + 15 (or preferably 30) meters forward per second. You have 1 second use time per JJ. No more feasible poptart meta because you cannot remain stationary while abusing invisible-hitbox-terrain in a jump.
So remember, 1 second is 6 or 8 meters height. 15 or 30 meters forward. (Any combination of height and forward as desired).
Each JJ you equip gives you 1 second of thrust (so equip 7 JJs, you have 7 seconds of thrust which is what it would take to reach the maximum height and distance).
1 JJ? Any mech: 6 or 8 meters height, 15 or 30 meters forward. (Takes 1 second to achieve this).
3 JJ? Any mech: 18 or 24 meters height, 45 or 90 meters forward. (Takes 3 seconds to achieve this.)
7 JJ? (Wolverine) : 42 or 56 meters height. 105 or 210 meters forward. (Takes 7 seconds to achieve this.)
Note: Five Northrup 120000 jump jets, with two in either leg and the fifth in the rear torso, improves upon the Wolverine's relatively fast cruising speed of 54 km/h by allowing it to jump up to 150 meters at a time.
That's 150 meters forward for 5 jumpjets that come with a stock Wolverine.
5 JJ? 30 or 40 meters height, 75 or 150 meters forward. (Takes 5 seconds to achieve this.)
OMG WE COULD BE TRUE TO THE LORE---OH MY FREAKING GAWD! O_O! IT really is possible!
Pfft, yeah PGI isn't gonna do it.
But: 12 JJ (Spider example) : 72 or 96 meters high, 180 or 360 meters forward! (Takes 12 seconds to achieve this).
Will we see it? Meh, probably not. But DAMN would it be good!
Edit:
A few quick, anti-abuse notes:
JJ thrust would be a steady amount; no initial Kinetic 'power thrust' as MWO has. No drastic height change in the 'jump-start' animation either, which allows for the 'spam space and jam hit detection' abuse that MWO suffers.
Maximum height can only be achieved with constant thrust (obviously) and as such it leaves you with nothing to 'land with'.
Distance forward is while stationary; this ideally (if I was making changes to the jumpjets) could be combined with inertia to produce 'longer, faster-traveling' leaps if you combine full speed and your jumpjets. You could even use this to jump diagonally, by having your speed in one direction then leap while twisting your legs.
With jumpjets always producing an upward and forward thrust, this means you could change direction in mid-air, provided you have enough thrust to manipulate your momentum. In theory, provided enough burn power you could also use this to 'slow down' or fall short of colliding with a wall.
Which brings me to another important but unrelated thing; I believe that colliding with walls at speed should produce negative effects such as damage.
Note that with this concept, a stationary jump is literally impossible and the use of jumpjets 'just to speed up turning' would also be severely hampered, keeping jumpjets as a method of transportation and not a method of surpassing the intended agility of your machine (so unlike the old Victor/Highlander which could do a 360 degree spin in a single jump [Heavy Metal and Victors], that would not be possible with this concept).
Another note in regards to turning: The faster you are going when you jump, the more difficult an actual airborne extreme change in direction would be; keep this in mind.
A final note in regards to turning: Ideally for best results, being unable to 'turn' while airborne without burning jumpjets would not only be realistic but it would also enforce the above two stipulations.
For those worried about the physics of jumping, letting off and jumping:
You would not be entitled to the full height if you jumped, let off and thrusted again. You'd lose height equal to the opposing meters/second you had to overcome to get upward lift again assuming you had the thrust left to do so. As this is harder for heavier mechs, this means that you don't 'pulse' your jumpjets in the air or you won't get anywhere.
----------
Spiders would be be so much fun.
As would that Trebuchet with the high number of jumpjets.
I miss jump jets and shooting spiders out the air, I think the fun went out the game, when they took away the jumping
Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:
.....yeah, I'd much prefer things get buffed to medium JJ level than ever see this happen.
Quite frankly, that's a flaw with MWO's design in giving 12 jumpjets to a Spider courtesy of PGI.
The digits given are from:
One "level" of height from tabletop (6 meters), which is what you get per jumpjet... or a slight increase to accomodate the fact that most of MWO's mechs are larger than Battletech's.
Half hex (15 meters) to full hex (30 meters) is half and the required minimum distance for a tabletop jump.
Basically the whole idea is: Give us Battletech jumpjets.
In an ideal BT simulator the Spider would have up to 8 with its stock engine: That's 48 to 64 meters up and 120 to 240 meters forward. Actual JJ limits in tabletop be based on your engine (though I can see issues with this).
Also keep in mind: To achieve that height (and a fall that would likely break its legs), it would have to sustain its jumpjets for a total of 12 seconds. That's 12 seconds of steady-rate 'climbng' where someone could take twin Gauss, aim just right and...
Victory music.
-----------
This said I had another idea which would determine the power of jumpjets based on class (inverted) * / weight.
However for each 'class' of jumpjet it favors the lightest mechs and doesn't like the heaviest mechs. It'd also -- in the long run - require adding a 6th class of JJ and making their 'spread' not so even to avoid hurting exclusively the 'heaviest' of each weight class.
Not-so-quick jump jet solution: give jump jets thrust and distance values closer to the source material, and rely on weapon mechanics to curtail poptarting.
There is no source material on thrust values, except that PGI needs to better define their vertical levels, especially since PGI mechs are larger than lore. In lore/BT boardgame (not Solaris), a one vertical level is 6m vs 1 hex of 30m. And the distanced jumped depended on the number of jumpjets, max equaled the number of hexes a mech's walking distance.
The JJ value in game is the max height at mech can reach, which that value is dependent on the type and number of JJ for that class. So a Highlander with 3 Class 1 JJ can jump 90m forward with full thrust, slowly reaching a height of approx 19m, damaging its legs upon landing. The distance traveled is shorter when feathering the jets for no damage landing. The need to feather should be included in the juice left, as well as the acceleration.
The height traveled per jet should changed from the 6.35ish meters to approx 7.5m for Class 1 for 90t. An Executioner, at 95t, Class 1 is 6m/jj. A Direwolf at 100t with Clan 1 is 5.7m/jj.
The Victor gets it even worse. With Class 2, an 80t Victor is allotted 5.9m/jj.
.
T-wolf at 75t, Class 3, set at 7m/jj. A cataphract at 70t, Class 3, set at 7.5m/jj. A Catapult at 65t, set at 8.1m/jj
Before others pop in here saying it was meant for maneuverability only, that is only reflected in the base BT boardgame. In the Solaris ruleset (2.5sec/turn in 7.5m hexes) mechs had the ability to fire their weapons while jumping. Example, the Highlander with 3JJ could jump max 90m. In base BT, that is 3 hexes. In Solaris, that same Highlander could jump for a total of 12 hexes per jump, and it being done 3 hexes PER TURN in 4 complete turns.
Basically, PGI needs to bring the height jumped per JJ closer across the board. Primarily cause the heavier mechs are not able to equip as meaning as most lighter mechs. PGI does not have to make them the same but their values should be closer than they currently are.
Simpler fix.
All jumpjets produce X amount of vertical distance + horizontal distance. Say 6 to 8 meters height + 15 (or preferably 30) meters forward per second. You have 1 second use time per JJ. No more feasible poptart meta because you cannot remain stationary while abusing invisible-hitbox-terrain in a jump.
So remember, 1 second is 6 or 8 meters height. 15 or 30 meters forward. (Any combination of height and forward as desired).
Each JJ you equip gives you 1 second of thrust (so equip 7 JJs, you have 7 seconds of thrust which is what it would take to reach the maximum height and distance).
1 JJ? Any mech: 6 or 8 meters height, 15 or 30 meters forward. (Takes 1 second to achieve this).
3 JJ? Any mech: 18 or 24 meters height, 45 or 90 meters forward. (Takes 3 seconds to achieve this.)
7 JJ? (Wolverine) : 42 or 56 meters height. 105 or 210 meters forward. (Takes 7 seconds to achieve this.)
Note: Five Northrup 120000 jump jets, with two in either leg and the fifth in the rear torso, improves upon the Wolverine's relatively fast cruising speed of 54 km/h by allowing it to jump up to 150 meters at a time.
That's 150 meters forward for 5 jumpjets that come with a stock Wolverine.
5 JJ? 30 or 40 meters height, 75 or 150 meters forward. (Takes 5 seconds to achieve this.)
OMG WE COULD BE TRUE TO THE LORE---OH MY FREAKING GAWD! O_O! IT really is possible!
Pfft, yeah PGI isn't gonna do it.
But: 12 JJ (Spider example) : 72 or 96 meters high, 180 or 360 meters forward! (Takes 12 seconds to achieve this).
Will we see it? Meh, probably not. But DAMN would it be good!
Edit:
A few quick, anti-abuse notes:
JJ thrust would be a steady amount; no initial Kinetic 'power thrust' as MWO has. No drastic height change in the 'jump-start' animation either, which allows for the 'spam space and jam hit detection' abuse that MWO suffers.
Maximum height can only be achieved with constant thrust (obviously) and as such it leaves you with nothing to 'land with'.
Distance forward is while stationary; this ideally (if I was making changes to the jumpjets) could be combined with inertia to produce 'longer, faster-traveling' leaps if you combine full speed and your jumpjets. You could even use this to jump diagonally, by having your speed in one direction then leap while twisting your legs.
With jumpjets always producing an upward and forward thrust, this means you could change direction in mid-air, provided you have enough thrust to manipulate your momentum. In theory, provided enough burn power you could also use this to 'slow down' or fall short of colliding with a wall.
Which brings me to another important but unrelated thing; I believe that colliding with walls at speed should produce negative effects such as damage.
Note that with this concept, a stationary jump is literally impossible and the use of jumpjets 'just to speed up turning' would also be severely hampered, keeping jumpjets as a method of transportation and not a method of surpassing the intended agility of your machine (so unlike the old Victor/Highlander which could do a 360 degree spin in a single jump [Heavy Metal and Victors], that would not be possible with this concept).
Another note in regards to turning: The faster you are going when you jump, the more difficult an actual airborne extreme change in direction would be; keep this in mind.
A final note in regards to turning: Ideally for best results, being unable to 'turn' while airborne without burning jumpjets would not only be realistic but it would also enforce the above two stipulations.
For those worried about the physics of jumping, letting off and jumping:
You would not be entitled to the full height if you jumped, let off and thrusted again. You'd lose height equal to the opposing meters/second you had to overcome to get upward lift again assuming you had the thrust left to do so. As this is harder for heavier mechs, this means that you don't 'pulse' your jumpjets in the air or you won't get anywhere.
----------
Spiders would be be so much fun.
As would that Trebuchet with the high number of jumpjets.
Sounds reasonably good, but how would different classes of jumpjets be distinguished that way?
That's 12 seconds of steady-rate 'climbng' where someone could take twin Gauss, aim just right and
That's kind of my point though, you don't emphasize taking more JJs, you actually de-emphasize it, most mediums wouldn't even bother with any more than 3, even poptarts. Speaking of which, a lot of people think that popping straight up and down is what poptarts do, but good poptarts make the best of both vertical AND horizontal movement to poptart, this just makes it easier for them to make that movement.
I don't really care how it was in TT, because this isn't TT so the rules for how jump jets work or even how crossing terrain works don't apply here.
Shouldn't we be differentiating the JJ from each faction so that we have more flavor in the game?
We could do something like cJJ get double thrust speed and cost half the tonnage and isJJ can have longer thrust duration and cost twice as much tonnage and crit space!
Shouldn't we be differentiating the JJ from each faction so that we have more flavor in the game?
We could do something like cJJ get double thrust speed and cost half the tonnage and isJJ can have longer thrust duration and cost twice as much tonnage and crit space!
(I just realized the sarcasm a little late -- heh, heh heh. But from the first line exclusively with the thought that Liao, Davion, Steiner, etc. JJs could all be different. The rest is based entirely on the thought behind the very first line before the sarcasm/joke)...
As much as I would love this -- PGI will NEVER do it.
When we asked endlessly for weapon variants... we got quirks... and quirks have nothing to do with factions.
PGI wouldn't even begin to know how to do anything in terms of balancing "faction" based weapons and jumpjets; the game would have had to be designed with that in mind from the beginning.
That said I've already got ideas for that but rather than based on faction they are based on manufacturer and each mech would have access to a limited selection based on 'locations' the player is at on the big map, availability and the mech itself. Sadly these are not worth suggesting for MWO. I'm using them instead for an upcoming 3D animation series I'm making currently just called "Battletech Simulator." Basically a series of what "I wanted" out of MWO when I first played it, when the words "Simulator" was being thrown around along with "Destructible environment" and "Tanks, infantry, decoys and information warfare."
The only flavor that might be considered would be to allow engine rate to have an effect on JJ. Clans omnis are currently locked in with their engines while IS/Clan battlemechs can change their engines.
Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 March 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:
That's kind of my point though, you don't emphasize taking more JJs, you actually de-emphasize it, most mediums wouldn't even bother with any more than 3, even poptarts. Speaking of which, a lot of people think that popping straight up and down is what poptarts do, but good poptarts make the best of both vertical AND horizontal movement to poptart, this just makes it easier for them to make that movement.
Have you ever tried to aim a weapon while jumping and moving forward -- Without turning UNLESS thrusting?
Try it. I want you to try it. Genuinely, I ask you to get a Spider V, slap on a large laser and try it.
Alternatively, take a Spider 5D or 5K (whichever you can crame jumpjets on and a ballistic [PPC or AC] and then try it. Remember you can only turn while thrusting. Only make jumps while going full speed because you will launch forward with this idea. Tell me how effective it is. Then tell me if you think this would benefit or hurt poptarts? Yes, you could attack while jumping. But where is the precision? Would you actively do this? If done where enemies have Gauss Rifles, ACs or PPCs or Large Lasers or Streaks or LRMs -- would you even survive this?
It is true you don't have to have a lot of jumpjets. But one JJ only getting at most less height than a Spider is tall? And jump spam being impossible?
3 jumpjets, 90 meters at most distance, 24 meters up at most vertical climb in 3 seconds? Yes, you jump higher and it isn't progressively fast -- meaning anyone and everyone will be able to shoot you on your way up. The big thing here is that poptarts are easier to shoot out of the sky than they have in shooting people on the ground.
There would be zero turning benefits to jumpjets; so the reason to get them is to climb and shoot.
The heights possible with 5 to 7 JJs on average can get people on top of almost every building in the game.
A Spider with 12 JJs could jump across roughly 85% of the (Old River City) map given at least 97 kph + 12 JJs. They could also make this jump in a single bound with maybe 8 JJs.
Or imagine, the ability to actually get on I9 from the cliff side on Alpine? The sheer tactical value of a high jumpjet count is indisputable. Not everyone will do it, and yes it won't be an instant Super Seijan leap by a mech with glowing Blonde hair yelling out names of undergarments, but every sheer advantage should have a risk. This is the essence of the definition of balance.
"Getting around" is the point of jumpjets. Would you carry just a couple to climb a step, or to travel to new strategic positions?
The big thing about poptarting is the abuse of invisible walls. The forward thrust is required to deal with it.
The reason poptarting was a problem in the first place is that invisible walls are at EVERY corner of Every structure on Every map. Even the new ones. You camp at one, you wait until you see enemy, you are invincible until ready to shoot. You leap, shoot, fall back behind cover. No one can shoot you.
The forward thrust is required and yes poptarts will have something going for them but the fact of the matter is, you are Significantly more likely to be able to hit them with two to three times more times than they can hit you with.
And actually the method of 'longer thrust' hurts shorter jumpjet use. This is because you won't get enough air with 3 or 4 jumpjets to make a poptart attack worth while. Yes, this does mean the Highlanders are doomed from being able to use this tactic, but at least they can jump. The original jumpjets would give you some 40+ meters into the sky. 4 Jumpjets at the highest setting for vertical would get you only 32 meters. Most Highlanders would only get 24 meters.
Skip to 3:15 on this next one.
Poptart on the wrong end of firepower.
If he was both moving forward and upward, it'd be even easier to hit him as opposed to abuse of invisible walls. At an angle, it'd be harder to hit him than if he jumped straight up -- but it'd be just as difficult if not more so for him to hit me.
In both cases, it adds the requirement of human player skill to the game. It also adds options for jumpjet worthy mechs in addition to risks. Everything should be a risk/reward consideration; if it is not, it is something that makes it superior over those without it rather than balanced.
Pjwned, on 24 March 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:
Sounds reasonably good, but how would different classes of jumpjets be distinguished that way?
In the given version, they would not. They would be universally identical for all mechs. This means no matter how small or big, you know you can rely on the jumpjets to do something for you.
That said as mentioned to McGral18, with the game's actual stats I can come up with an equation that favors lighter ends of each class. Mentioned before that, I also foresaw the need to add at least a 6th class of jumpjet or possibly even a 7th to avoid the "Light end of a weight class = jumpjets are AWESOME, Heavy end of a weight class = jumpjets couldn't even move a marble" stereotype that would come from just applying anything like this to the 5 classes outright.
Final Fantasy 7 for the first two. (Remake! Eager but wary. It's a "Redo" so it won't be the same game by a long shot.)
And then Homeworld.
Homeworld is one of my favorite games of all time.
Mcgral18, on 24 March 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:
Here's what we currently have to work with:
HoverJets™ are quite sad, aside from Class IV...those are adequate.
Such graph. Much pretty.
That gives me an idea of how to make a workable equation that they could literally plug into MWO for "Class" based thrusters. Thank you. That'll be a lot easier than simply making it up on my own. Sometime later today or probably tomorrow I'll work on it.
Have you ever tried to aim a weapon while jumping and moving forward -- Without turning UNLESS thrusting?
As long as you have the correct torso twist, this isn't near as hard as you make it out, if you think the best players were pogo-sticking up and down during the Victor nascar poptart days, you would be very wrong. The MW4 days were no different either, the pogo-stick jump was a sign of a novice jumptard, it was easy to predict and easy to respond if you knew what you were doing.
Koniving, on 25 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:
But one JJ only getting at most less height than a Spider is tall?
That's more than most mechs get currently with one jump jet, and it is faster than most. If my Dire with 1 JJ could only get Spider height after 1 second.....
Koniving, on 25 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:
3 jumpjets, 90 meters at most distance, 24 meters up at most vertical climb in 3 seconds? Yes, you jump higher and it isn't progressively fast -- meaning anyone and everyone will be able to shoot you on your way up.
Depends on whether inertia factors in or not, currently you do get a tiny tiny bit of forward momentum, but the climb up is what makes me think you would just ruin jump jets, at least outside of 1-2 for just getting over stupid rocks or minor terrain features.
So my question is, why do you want to make mounting more JJs objectively worse than it already is? There are some reasons to take 4-5 JJs on lights and medium because of how important it is to get around terrain on some maps. It isn't a go-to option like it used to be, but it is a valid option now. The only problem is heavies and assaults don't get enough from JJs to even bother.
Koniving, on 25 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:
"Getting around" is the point of jumpjets. Would you carry just a couple to climb a step, or to travel to new strategic positions?
The irony is, they do that now for lights and mediums, though lights could be better. The funny thing is, they can get to those points faster than with your proposed idea.
Koniving, on 25 March 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:
The reason poptarting was a problem in the first place is that invisible walls are at EVERY corner of Every structure on Every map.
I also want to go ahead and take the time to tell you, you are dead wrong on this one. I'm not sure where you got this idea, but this is NOT the reason poptarts were dominant.
Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 March 2016 - 08:04 AM.
Heavier mechs = Better thrust for much longer refill duration.
Fixed.
so then they just wait a few seconds longer before their next pop tart.. No thanks..
I honestly don't think JJ's are bad now.. Lighter mechs can fly, mediums, poptart,, heavies use them to get around pretty well,, assaults to get um up and over rouge terrain. Works for me
so then they just wait a few seconds longer before their next pop tart.. No thanks..
I honestly don't think JJ's are bad now.. Lighter mechs can fly, mediums, poptart,, heavies use them to get around pretty well,, assaults to get um up and over rouge terrain. Works for me
"Poptarting" today would be different than the original version. There are more mechs with JJ. And lighter mechs are poptarting but simply using 1-2 fewer weapons. Today's alphas current exceed yesterdays alphas. Vast changes weapon synergy such as Gauss Rifle, ER/PPC, and AC5 have been basically decoupled, which were the primary mixed weapon grouping that also did not have the variety of mechs that are seen today.
Of course the biggest outcries were from the other assault mechs that did not have the structural buffs as they do today, while equipping a brawling weapon load.
The other is PGI choice to increase the base gravity (36.xm/s^2? gravities atm?) to reduce the perception that things were falling too slow. If gravity had not been severely increased, jumping mechs would have stayed in the air longer, making them easier to hit.
On a side note, planetary gravity should have an effect on mech movement/speed.
Quote
It's too bad all the Mech animations came first and weren't tuned to the proper scale. After the focus group testing at 9.81 m/s2 was overwhelmingly negative from the "floaty" perception, PGI increased gravity to 36.3 m/s2 to match the feel of the animations.
If only the animations had been scaled to Earth gravity from the very beginning and Mechs leaned into their turns properly... the testing would've had positive feedback and we could've avoided the immersion-breaking scale mismatch we have today (and the era of overpowered jump-sniping would've never happened).
Also, I should point out that once objects in a scene start moving, that movement trumps all other hints our brain uses to judge the perceived scale of the world. So whether a car looks like a car and looks properly scaled compared to a building or a tree becomes irrelevant to our brains once Mechs start moving around, or trees start falling, or dropships start moving, etc
1
Koniving, on 24 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:
would be to allow engine rate to have an effect on JJ. Clans omnis are currently locked in with their engines while IS/Clan battlemechs can change their engines.
