55 replies to this topic

[Depressing-Fire]

#MWOneedssafespaces

I'm not a top tier gundum pilot like on the animes or anything, but I totally agree with OP, it's gotten to a point that any "IS/Clamz op plz halp" makes me cringe. Balance is goodat the moment in my opinion, an OmniMecb will get facefukt by a BattleMech and vise versa.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Then you're doing it wrong.

It doesn't self-regulate because it doesn't have the tools and rewards you for faction wh0ring. Ideally FW 3 will change that.

I get your skepticism - I do. However the premise is you force players to choose - the "I want teamwork" and "I don't want teamwork" queues.

The in Teamwork queue you give units rewards not for flipping factions but by taking and holding an area against all commers.

This promotes a more stable population over time and creates two tiers - Care/Don't Care, for player population. This lets you vent the people who just don't want to improve out of the Care tier and gives people with some drive/self-respect somewhere to metriculate to.

Sure, there's going to be skill tiers within each side. I will take getting stomped by an MS 12man when my team is still pulling together, pushing the gate and communicating over getting stomped by a mediocre 4 man plus some mediocre pugs because my team refuses to communicate or even try.

Well, if the rewards work out, then it'll self-regulate properly.

For me, CW should be a "teamwork" or GTFO mentality. That's how you'll even remotely get anything out of it. There shouldn't be a choice.. you either do it or suffer.

The problem is that we're trying to handhold people that aren't even trying to do the teamwork thing... or that refuse to learn to play the mode correctly.

I can understand the need for a "new player" type of CW that minimally affects things and/or gets lesser rewards. I just simply DO NOT WANT players participating in CW that don't want to play it as a team. There's no workaround for trying to cater to this particular set of people.

[Shard Phoenix]

I'm not a super-hero player on an individual level. It's something I'm working on because I like to get better. I have more fun that way.

Put me in an team environment and I do well. I follow orders, make sure I understand the tactics being put into play and do my part to make them an action instead of a plan.

If/when a queue split comes I know what one I'm going to want to be in, and it isn't the solo queue.

I had an opportunity to do a drop with MS the other night. I felt an extra level of "don't screw up" pressure and thankfully, I didn't screw up. It was encouraging to have the drop commander say "You did fine. I didn't notice you which means you didn't @$@% up and that's all we ask". It was a lot more fun to be part of a team that really was playing to win.

Only reason I'm content to solo Puggle it in FW at the moment is because my drop deck needs work and I don't want to start regularly dropping with a unit until I have more 'Mechs available to be versatile in what I drop for each map and situation. Grindin' them C-bills....

[Davers]

I have given up on CW/FW.

It will never be a true place for competitive teams to play each other- quite simply the map is too large and there are too many factions, then you add in the tech differences.

It will never be the 'real war in the BT universe fantasy' that other players want either.

Quite simply, I don't think PGI knew what they wanted to actually do with it, they just knew they had to put it out there to silence the complaints. And that, I feel, is what is really wrong about PGI's handling of the IP. Too much, from the mechs to the game modes, are just put out there and left for players to figure out what to do with them. Then we end up with what we have now, mechs that no one wants or will spend money on and game modes where ignoring the objectives and killing the enemy is almost always the best option.

PGI needs to create a game, not just a nostalgia sandbox. They need to strictly decide how they want game modes and mechs to function and then figure out how to deliver on that. How can this game be considered an Esport with so few 'good' mechs and game modes that all play out the same?

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 24 March 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

Well, if the rewards work out, then it'll self-regulate properly.

For me, CW should be a "teamwork" or GTFO mentality. That's how you'll even remotely get anything out of it. There shouldn't be a choice.. you either do it or suffer.

The problem is that we're trying to handhold people that aren't even trying to do the teamwork thing... or that refuse to learn to play the mode correctly.

I can understand the need for a "new player" type of CW that minimally affects things and/or gets lesser rewards. I just simply DO NOT WANT players participating in CW that don't want to play it as a team. There's no workaround for trying to cater to this particular set of people.

That's the point of the queue split though -

people who don't want to play on a team will be in pug queue. They'll be playing CW maps/modes but can't flip a planet.

You are 100% correct and I agree completely. That's the point of the queue split. This is their GTFO card. They can play the maps/modes and get LP rewards and play with other Rambozos and be terribad and play with other terribads. They are dead weight on actual FW though and they need cut loose from it.

So you cut them loose. They'll have their queue, we'll have ours.

[meteorol]

Queue split won't change a thing. There are countless unit players that are t7 material terribad in CW. A large Clan Wolf loyalty unit (for the most time) is the best example.

And the vast majority of them most likely won't adapt when the queues are split. If mwo history has shown anything during the last three years, it is that players will go to the Forums and Twitter and cry with the power of 1 billion lungs instead of adapting.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

That's the point of the queue split though -

people who don't want to play on a team will be in pug queue. They'll be playing CW maps/modes but can't flip a planet.

You are 100% correct and I agree completely. That's the point of the queue split. This is their GTFO card. They can play the maps/modes and get LP rewards and play with other Rambozos and be terribad and play with other terribads. They are dead weight on actual FW though and they need cut loose from it.

So you cut them loose. They'll have their queue, we'll have ours.

I don't think the queue split will be a good thing.

The expectations "change" in the sense that those that play in the "unitless queue" will want this applied to the "unit queue" or dumb it down further.

For instance, the bulk of people that say "this mech is good" (like a Mist Lynx) and then get told otherwise will keep thinking that way while being Sub Tier3 in the solo queue... while someone playing with a Tier 1 PSR in the group queue would feel vastly different about it (most likely anyways). A lot of things people SHOULD be learning in the solo queue never do, and try to apply/translate that in the group queue and fail miserably. While the group queue is riddled with errors and bad play... they aren't to the same degree that one would find in the solo queue (in the sense that players doing the things they do in the solo queue never really get punished for staying out in the open instead of moving from cover to cover - except when they are lurmed to death and report back to the forums).

This goes far beyond the solos vs premade debates that have lasted here as well. There are still people that are so against getting organized.. to the point where being beaten is a conspiracy... instead of not realizing it's more about teamwork actually being executed over "personal skill".

Pretty much, we're somewhat responsible for that (though PGI shares most of the blame for that IMO) and we simply allow it to fester from Day 1. Split queues only amplify those that understand what it takes vs those that'll never get it.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 March 2016 - 12:07 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 25 March 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

I don't think the queue split will be a good thing.

The expectations "change" in the sense that those that play in the "unitless queue" will want this applied to the "unit queue" or dumb it down further.

For instance, the bulk of people that say "this mech is good" (like a Mist Lynx) and then get told otherwise will keep thinking that way while being Sub Tier3 in the solo queue... while someone playing with a Tier 1 PSR in the group queue would feel vastly different about it (most likely anyways). A lot of things people SHOULD be learning in the solo queue never do, and try to apply/translate that in the group queue and fail miserably. While the group queue is riddled with errors and bad play... they aren't to the same degree that one would find in the solo queue (in the sense that players doing the things they do in the solo queue never really get punished for staying out in the open instead of moving from cover to cover - except when they are lurmed to death and report back to the forums).

This goes far beyond the solos vs premade debates that have lasted here as well. There are still people that are so against getting organized.. to the point where being beaten is a conspiracy... instead of not realizing it's more about teamwork actually being executed over "personal skill".

Pretty much, we're somewhat responsible for that (though PGI shares most of the blame for that IMO) and we simply allow it to fester from Day 1. Split queues only amplify those that understand what it takes vs those that'll never get it.

I had a similar attitude at first.

Then I saw several good units in different factions put a lot of work into trying to train pugs in CW.

That made it crystal clear for me that most people really don't want to get better at the game and those who do can, will and do seek out the opportunity to do so.

People in bad mechs with bad builds are not lacking opportunity to learn good builds and good mechs. They lack the desire. A pretty critical difference. You start to realize that those bad pugs who refuse to play as a team, etc. are getting repeatedly shown by good units they drop with what works and by bad pug teams what doesn't work and they are still actively playing like the bad pug groups - they're just complaining that the organized/good units are 'unfair'.

You can't fix bad. Bads gonna bad. The best thing you can do for them is force them to make a choice - they gonna be bads or they going to go into the 'effort expected' queue?

The people in the pug queue will want.... whatever. Don't care. Doesn't matter. So long as you and I are not playing with/against them, having to carry them like the dead weight they've decided to be I really don't care. Give them magical unicorn pony mechs that shoot rainbows. Whatever. They're irrelevant. You can't force them to get good at the game.

What you do is provide an active choice:

1. Do you go unitless scrub queue, play with bads against bads

2. Do you go tagged queue and play with other people who've opted into playing in groups and with groups in a competitive environment?

It's like having ranked vs unranked matches. People play unranked but the expectation is that if you're in a ranked match you need to ******* carry and you have no right or justification to expect anything but mockery for going full scrub there. What you're doing is removing those excuses. If you're in unit queue you're playing with units against units. The better units are going to face-roll you. If you don't want to play in an environment like that (and try to get good enough to do the rolling) then drop tags and go play with the scrubs in scrubtown.

[Kosh 95]

MischiefSC, on 24 March 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

That's the point of the queue split though -

people who don't want to play on a team will be in pug queue. They'll be playing CW maps/modes but can't flip a planet.

The few descriptions and hints we've seen so far do not support that conclusion.

Quote

You are 100% correct and I agree completely. That's the point of the queue split. This is their GTFO card. They can play the maps/modes and get LP rewards and play with other Rambozos and be terribad and play with other terribads. They are dead weight on actual FW though and they need cut loose from it.

So you cut them loose. They'll have their queue, we'll have ours.

I don't think you quite understand how the split is really going to work. From what I've been able to glean, the non-unit queue will absolutely have an impact on planets and the map.

[TKSax]

Kosh 95, on 25 March 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

I don't think you quite understand how the split is really going to work. From what I've been able to glean, the non-unit queue will absolutely have an impact on planets and the map.

If so that is absolutely idiotic

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 25 March 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

I had a similar attitude at first.

Then I saw several good units in different factions put a lot of work into trying to train pugs in CW.

That made it crystal clear for me that most people really don't want to get better at the game and those who do can, will and do seek out the opportunity to do so.

People in bad mechs with bad builds are not lacking opportunity to learn good builds and good mechs. They lack the desire. A pretty critical difference. You start to realize that those bad pugs who refuse to play as a team, etc. are getting repeatedly shown by good units they drop with what works and by bad pug teams what doesn't work and they are still actively playing like the bad pug groups - they're just complaining that the organized/good units are 'unfair'.

You can't fix bad. Bads gonna bad. The best thing you can do for them is force them to make a choice - they gonna be bads or they going to go into the 'effort expected' queue?

The people in the pug queue will want.... whatever. Don't care. Doesn't matter. So long as you and I are not playing with/against them, having to carry them like the dead weight they've decided to be I really don't care. Give them magical unicorn pony mechs that shoot rainbows. Whatever. They're irrelevant. You can't force them to get good at the game.

What you do is provide an active choice:

1. Do you go unitless scrub queue, play with bads against bads

2. Do you go tagged queue and play with other people who've opted into playing in groups and with groups in a competitive environment?

It's like having ranked vs unranked matches. People play unranked but the expectation is that if you're in a ranked match you need to ******* carry and you have no right or justification to expect anything but mockery for going full scrub there. What you're doing is removing those excuses. If you're in unit queue you're playing with units against units. The better units are going to face-roll you. If you don't want to play in an environment like that (and try to get good enough to do the rolling) then drop tags and go play with the scrubs in scrubtown.

We'll see how it turns out.

I feel I'll be seeing the same people complain AND still want an MM in CW/FW while the current MM struggles to put together competent teams at certain times of the day... not realizing that trying to institute an MM in CW is the equivalent of trying to filter out unopened bottled water.

[DarkMetalBlade]

I'm genuinely curious, Mischief...

Of all the PuGs that those units have tried hard to train, how many actually have listened to them, implemented their advice, & succeeded with them?

[illudium Q 36]

So .... some want to split the queue by having us make a choice between taking a blue or a red pill ,,, just like they did in the Matrix movie.

I don't think the CW population is big enough to support this split.

Looks like the care/don't care and worried/not worried crowds are stuck with each other.

Me? I'm not worried about it.

[Crockdaddy]

Imagine just how EASY it will be to farm on the pug queue lol. Heck imagine how easy it will be to farm the unit queue for about a week before many of the righteous units quit again. Then it will be like 10 units left standing that can hack it in the unit queue.

[MischiefSC]

Kosh 95, on 25 March 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

The few descriptions and hints we've seen so far do not support that conclusion.



I don't think you quite understand how the split is really going to work. From what I've been able to glean, the non-unit queue will absolutely have an impact on planets and the map.

I asked Russ on Twitter. He specifically said they wouldn't.

Worlds get tagged by units, tags generate rewards. Untagged people can't flip worlds as they don't have tags. It also would make it easy to game to flip worlds - don't want to fight KCom? Sync drop tagless, Ghost and roll puggles.

[Khereg]

Crockdaddy, on 25 March 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Imagine just how EASY it will be to farm on the pug queue lol. Heck imagine how easy it will be to farm the unit queue for about a week before many of the righteous units quit again. Then it will be like 10 units left standing that can hack it in the unit queue.

Except then a unit will really have to either quit playing FW entirely or disband to go back to solo queue...

[MischiefSC]

DarkMetalBlade, on 25 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

I'm genuinely curious, Mischief...

Of all the PuGs that those units have tried hard to train, how many actually have listened to them, implemented their advice, & succeeded with them?

A handful. Out of 50 people maybe 5. Now how many of those convert down the line because it planted a seed so to speak? Hard to say. Too much population churn to effectively gauge the impact on the samples I can get.

A strong success story is MS. They have an exemplary onboarding system for new members. However people come knocking on MS' door looking to join a unit so it's easier.

You can't force people to want to git gud. Best you can do is try and make a clear and easy path for them to take when they want to.

The population will support the split. It'll just require a little adaptation.

[Crockdaddy]

Khereg, on 25 March 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Except then a unit will really have to either quit playing FW entirely or disband to go back to solo queue...

I completely agree which was my sarcastic point. The farmer types will simply head to the pug queue and dominate there. Quite a few groups whom suck in CW have some very good players that do quite well in the solo queue. If only their teammates would stop focusing on running so many LRM boats and push at the same time they'd all be happier and we'd have more competitive matches.

[MTier Slayed Up]

A game that is mostly a grind fest to earn mechs unless you buy premi and maybe a few packs and a game that is solely centered around a team PvP environment with a, I say this loosely, "ranked" game mode.

When I say "ranked," I really mean that it's meant to be a competitive part of the game, a mode where players should be expected to work together. Where the veterans migrate to test others, or a drop commanders tactics.

This "ranked" game mode should have been end-game content...As in locked unless you meet specific requirements. It makes absolutely zero sense to have the mode open doors for every player. New players that ignore that warning label or don't even bother reading and just que up to ruin a 11 man or below, inadvertently sabotaging a game because he simply doesn't have a clue. Being down just 1 guy against another pre-made makes that game that much harder to win, imo.

There's plenty of solutions that have been thrown out but I feel like the easy route was taken by "lolz, we'll separate unit and pug que." Wouldn't it have made more sense to lock the mode if they didn't have four mastered mechs? Actually requiring them to play the game for more than a couple weeks and giving them some sort of incentive to get that mode?

I feel like that this has been an ongoing issue since the release of CW, and yet it's now finally being acted on, but in a lazy fashion.

[C E Dwyer]

While I totally understand the frustration, of team players, having to put up with these singletons, that trash talk and blame others for their failings, I think you'll find that splitting the queues ends up, a disaster, more than dealing with these idiots.

The population will simply not be enough, CW coughs, FW, needs these people to fill up the slots, sure you might organise more you might concentrate numbers, but how many nights of the weeks are there exactly enough people to make up a 12 if your units not big enough to make up the numbers on their own.

What happens when the numbers of two units makes up 11 or worse 13, which person gets kicked by his or her unit that night so the rest can have fun, why should that person put up with not being able to play and why should that 'friend' continue to fill up the numbers or even stay with a unit that basically dumped them when things got a bit difficult.

In the 11 case you sit around for an evening hoping for a thing that will be virtually extinct when the queues are split, the single merc that made a unit tag.

Numbers arranged and sorted out lets get down to attacking planets.

Lets pretend that all unit leaders, like all other units leaders and will do more than just insult each other, I'm talking about the ones on the same side here, not just the ones that might be on the other sides.

So your going to co-ordinate drops on the planets so you don't do endless turret drops, that's nice, you get to fight, but tell me what is the point in continuing to play FW, when your in effect having a private 12 man drop, on maps that are worse, than the quick play maps.

Organised units from where I'm sitting, once the queues spilt, would be better of playing third party campaigns and league's and just let FW die, because frankly if you can organise to not make FW endless turret drops then you'll have more fun with a proper campaign.

Myself I'm currently not with a unit, I'm holding out either putting my own tag on or rejoining a unit, and frankly, until the drop ship exploit is delt with in counter attack, I doubt i'll ever bother with FW, but I'll have a look at the split queues, if they ever become a thing, as I think the split queue's were spoken about in an air of optimism shortly after the steam launch. and the numbers are not growing but sinking.

As bad as CW is with it's problems, I think that the spilt queue will prove to be a very bad thing for everyone that plays it.

So becareful what you ask for, in moments of deep frustration, you might just get what you ask for, and find its not the utopia you imagine.

Edited by Cathy, 28 March 2016 - 01:49 AM.