106 replies to this topic

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Sigh...

Statistically speaking if you are consistantly contributing more than average to your team you'll win more than you lose over the long term.

Also PSR is an XP bar designed solely to keep the bitter vets from using their main accounts to introduce the steam newseals to the club.

[Wintersdark]

Triordinant, on 26 March 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

Maybe they should have separate PSR for the group queue and solo queue.

yeah, I think so.

Even though 2 man and 12 man are totally different animals, at least you'll have appropriate ratings for the selected queue. This was an issue in the Elo days too.

[nehebkau]

maniacos, on 26 March 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Please remove or rework the PSR system. I know this has been posted and discussed before but I just need to write this here again. The PSR is almost entirely based on team performance and not personal skill. When I am in a medium or light with 24 alpha and do like 350 or more damage in a match, my rating still sinks because the team lost the match.

Yes, PGI fails to realize there is a maximum extent to which a player can carry, based on mech spechs, when doing their balancing. A lot of their PSR assumes that a player will be using a meta build -- and as such really isn't a measure of skill but a measure of Mech+Skill.

I've always though that the top 5% (score wise) of a match should go up a little, the bottom 5% should go down a little and the remaining 80% should not change their skill level, ignoring wins and that score should be calculated as it is now but divided by 1/10 th of the mech weight.

[The Lost Boy]

I got to Tier 1 with a below .500 winning percentage. It was pro .495 or so but still under. Just make sure when you dont win to still carry (=, 🔽), if it goes down it wont be that much.

[nehebkau]

Lemming of the BDA, on 26 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

I got to Tier 1 with a below .500 winning percentage. It was pro .495 or so but still under. Just make sure when you dont win to still carry (=, ������), if it goes down it wont be that much.

Point being, someone who only plays lights is going to have a MUCH harder time carrying than someone who mostly plays heavies and as such will have an easier time getting that magic ~500 damage to not have their score go down when they get saddled with a bunch of monkeys on their team.

The fact that you can simply grind your way to tier 1 in heavies/assaults is a testament to its failure (and a testament to the skill of the light pilots who get there).

Balancing CAN NOT HAPPEN without taking into account both the pilot and the mech -- the writing is on the wall and PGI is simply choosing to ignore it..... they need some sort of BV value for mechs.

Edited by nehebkau, 26 March 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[Mystere]

Alistair Winter, on 26 March 2016 - 05:32 AM, said:

That's the problem when players are demanding that PSR should have better rewards on a match-by-match basis, for the players who "carried their team", and did 900 dmg in defeat. It sounds fair, but over time, it hurts the whole system, because it rewards selfish players who focus more on doing damage than winning matches.

Hear, hear.

Mole, on 26 March 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

It takes a special mindset to not be selfish in a PUG game. A mindset that most people just don't have, and will never have.

Amen to that!

Edited by Mystere, 26 March 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Mystere]

nehebkau, on 26 March 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Yes, PGI fails to realize there is a maximum extent to which a player can carry, based on mech spechs, when doing their balancing. A lot of their PSR assumes that a player will be using a meta build -- and as such really isn't a measure of skill but a measure of Mech+Skill.

I've always though that the top 5% (score wise) of a match should go up a little, the bottom 5% should go down a little and the remaining 80% should not change their skill level, ignoring wins and that score should be calculated as it is now but divided by 1/10 th of the mech weight.

How do you measure command skills?
How do you measure scouting and spotting?
How do you reward the vanguard role, harasser, disruptor, the sacrificial death?

Ignoring wins is the worst thing you can do.

nehebkau, on 26 March 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Point being, someone who only plays lights is going to have a MUCH harder time carrying than someone who mostly plays heavies and as such will have an easier time getting that magic ~500 damage to not have their score go down when they get saddled with a bunch of monkeys on their team.

The fact that you can simply grind your way to tier 1 in heavies/assaults is a testament to its failure (and a testament to the skill of the light pilots who get there).

Balancing CAN NOT HAPPEN without taking into account both the pilot and the mech -- the writing is on the wall and PGI is simply choosing to ignore it..... they need some sort of BV value for mechs.

So why not solely count wins above all else? Ignore damage. Ignore kills. In the long term (i.e. hundreds to thousands of matches) winning should be all that matters.

Edited by Mystere, 26 March 2016 - 08:54 AM.

[El Bandito]

Xavori, on 26 March 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

That's not even remotely true. You are 1/12th of a team. Even if you perform 2x to 3x better than a normal player, you'll never be more than a small fraction of the team's chances to win or lose.

And it's not that win/loss is a part of the PSR formula, it's that it the most overwhelming part. If your team wins, it's a near certainty your rating won't go down. Conversely, you can have a very good match, a match that would be max increase if you'd won, and have your rating go down because the rest of your team lost.

That's where you are mistaken. Sure, in some solo-q matches, performing 2-3 times the work of an average pug will not stave off defeat, but if one can do it consistently, over hundreds of games, then he will have more wins than losses, guaranteed.

A max increase of your PSR requires 401 points in victory. 401 points in a loss will also increase your PSR, albeit in small numbers. See, you do not not even know how PSR is calculated. Personal effort matters. Heck, only 251 points is needed to not fall down ranks, and that's mere 502 damage, not counting kills and assists.

Xavori, on 26 March 2016 - 06:51 AM, said:

But perhaps the worst part of PSR is that it doesn't function like a true ELO. If you reached 50/50 success/fail in ELO, you stop moving in rating. A 50/50 success/fail ration with MWO's PSR is still going to move you up. That's why most players who understand PSR don't even think of it as a rating at all, but just an XP bar. Play long enough and unless you are the worst player to ever play, you'll end up in tier 1.

This part is more correct. The system is designed to push experienced players upwards, away from the newbies. However, one does have to work for it if his game is mediocre, otherwise we would not have people complaining in the forums about how they can't climb out of tier 3-2, and that their teammates suck etc...

nehebkau, on 26 March 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Point being, someone who only plays lights is going to have a MUCH harder time carrying than someone who mostly plays heavies and as such will have an easier time getting that magic ~500 damage to not have their score go down when they get saddled with a bunch of monkeys on their team.

The fact that you can simply grind your way to tier 1 in heavies/assaults is a testament to its failure (and a testament to the skill of the light pilots who get there).

The system can work for Light pilots, if PGI actually rewarded Light/Medium role warfare in the first place. PGI have not done it in any satisfactory form, hence we got this lopsided class queue numbers.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 March 2016 - 08:58 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

we all have to remember Even Russ Says he wants to add more to PSR and the Rewards System,
PSR & Rewards v2.5 if you will, such as Adding AMS rewards and increasing Flanking rewards,

[Mystere]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 March 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

we all have to remember Even Russ Says he wants to add more to PSR and the Rewards System,
PSR & Rewards v2.5 if you will, such as Adding AMS rewards and increasing Flanking rewards,

Just reward winning. End. Of. Story.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mystere, on 26 March 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Just reward winning. End. Of. Story.

which is what we have now,
NOT HELPING!!!

perhaps we need these Rewards?
(Rewards That Really Need To Be Added!)

[C E Dwyer]

P.S.R is an extremely poor system, that should not have been used in the first place.

What makes it worse is that it has an upward bias, this bias should be removed to a level one

Foxwalker, on 26 March 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

The only thing I can say about the Tier system is that it removes some focus from KDR. The idea to get players focus more on team play to win the match to increase their Tier rather than only seeing how many kills per match they can get to up their KDR.

Personally I for one worry less about how many kills I get and focus more on contributing to the "win"

If it worked to promote team play then It would have Merit, but it doesn't.

I saw a founder today in a D-DC who should in theory know what an Atlas is capable of, and not go wandering off alone, but he did exactly that, in the same match mechs on 80-90 % health were refusing to walk into domination mode circle to stop the other teams counter, I could no longer to so, as I was cored, lost half my torso and was on 39 % health.

P.S.R is a big waste of development time, its the same old, we'll fix this, we'll improve the way this works, we are overhauling, spoken in announcements should strike fear into vets hearts, as it almost never does, and usually makes things over complex and worse, or simply worse.

I was trying to think of something that they have made better since this game live, I struggled to think of anything, but then remembered your mech bay loading time after a match.

Those with many mechs at the time will shudder to think how long it would take with twice the mechs now, sadlu the ver2.0 UI is painfully cluttered and is far less user friendly, then 1.5 which I look back on a UI that was simple to use uncluttered and other than the loading time was vastly superior, in look and to use.

The only other thing I can think of is the mech textures being standard at 2k now.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Why is anybody taking the OP seriously?

The PSR system is based on your ability to bring victory to your team. If you do very well and lose, your PSR still goes up, though. If you run around and distract the whole enemy team while your teammates mop-up, then your PSR should increase as you helped secure victory for your team, regardless if you inflict much damage. If you inflict some moderate damage and your team loses, then you failed to demonstrate your ability to secure victory for your team.

PSR's failing is NOT because it measures team performance, it's actually designed for that. it's just that PGI hasn't found a way to properly record/reward the act of distracting the enemy team in terms of Cbill payout and matchscore points. So, they rely on the win/loss factor for determining g if you deserve more PSR points. If you are a lone sniper on a hilltop tying up 4-5 enemies, the cbill reward system don't really give you credit for that and your match score might not be high, but you deserve to get PSR points for that since you significantly turned the tide in your team's favor.

Perhaps PGI should reward you more MatchScore points for the more time the enemy team has you targeted, and for how much time you have enemy units targeted. There needs to be a way for low-damage but high-effectivity combat maneuvers to be recorded properly so narrow-minded folk like the OP don't try to equate Skill with Damage all the time.

Moral of the story: PSR's reliance on Victory to determine your "skill" is a good thing, but PGI needs to find a way to measure those Victory-causing metrics that don't involve raw damage output.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 26 March 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Mystere, on 26 March 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

How do you measure command skills?
How do you measure scouting and spotting?
How do you reward the vanguard role, harasser, disruptor, the sacrificial death?

Ignoring wins is the worst thing you can do.




So why not solely count wins above all else? Ignore damage. Ignore kills. In the long term (i.e. hundreds to thousands of matches) winning should be all that matters.

Mystere, on 26 March 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

How do you measure command skills?
How do you measure scouting and spotting?
How do you reward the vanguard role, harasser, disruptor, the sacrificial death?

Ignoring wins is the worst thing you can do.

So why not solely count wins above all else? Ignore damage. Ignore kills. In the long term (i.e. hundreds to thousands of matches) winning should be all that matters.

Yes.

It's the only way to reward actually good play. If you're "carrying" in all or most of your matches, you WILL win more matches than someone who's barely scraping by. Yes, you'll lose some where you personally performed well, but in aggregate, you WILL win more.

This, in all honesty, is why I liked Elo more than PSR. It had flaws, too, but ultimately the only thing that mattered was whether what you did in your play contributed to winning.

PSR is more gameable, it rewards selfish play, and doesn't reward legitimately good play in a great many ways.

[maniacos]

El Bandito, on 26 March 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

If you are good, then you should have more wins than losses overtime. Therefore you should be grateful that this system is heavily based on WLR. Individual performance only metrics will turn this game into "Hide behind teammates and farm points warrior: online".

Nope exactly not. Your personal performance has almost nothing to do with your team's performance in PUG queue. Might be different in premades but not in oridinary Quick Play.

[Y E O N N E]

maniacos, on 26 March 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Nope exactly not. Your personal performance has almost nothing to do with your team's performance in PUG queue. Might be different in premades but not in oridinary Quick Play.

False.

You being able to take down three 'Mechs on your own lessens the burden on everybody else.

You squirreling and dragging enemy's away from the firing line lessens the burden on everybody else.

You moving out ahead in a tanky 'Mech on a push to take the hits makes it easier for your friends to shoot back while you get focused.

Successfully spotting enemy's without getting focused helps your team organize their actions or, at least, launch LRMs.

Simply being there in the fight means less damage taken per 'Mech for your team, allowing you to collectively last longer.

I can go on and on about things you do solo that directly affect the outcome of the match.

[maniacos]

Wintersdark, on 26 March 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

See Mr. Bandito's post. Because this system is still heavily weighted on W/L, over multiple matches your impact on the matches matters more. Even if you don't do a lot of damage, if you're helping teams win you'll have a positive wlr and thus progress much faster.

KahnWongFuChung, on 26 March 2016 - 06:20 AM, said:

OP I would care about this topic if there was rewards involved when gaining tiers but there is not. The only reward you get for gaining higher tiers is playing more exploiters-lagers-and hackers and to tell you the truth tier4 is much funnier than tier 3-2-1 will ever be .

You all forget that this is of course a matter of concern, I mean you will get the rating no matter what you do and if the W/L is around 50% you will increase so if what you say is true you have hardly a chance to stay in "normal grounds" if you want to say it this way, besides of playing extra bad or like just stand and let them kill you quickly which is certainly not what was intended.
That said, you can ignore your tier but it will have effect on your matchmaking and so there is a reason to be concerned about that.

[AssaultPig]

the overall movement of your PSR up or down reflects player skill; sometimes if you play well but still lose it'll go down, but so what? Over the course of time it will wind up being representative (insofar as W/L can really represent individual skill in a team game, anyway.)

Cathy, on 26 March 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

P.S.R is an extremely poor system, that should not have been used in the first place.

What makes it worse is that it has an upward bias, this bias should be removed to a level one

why?

what PSR is really measuring is player experience, modified to some extent by player 'skill.' More experienced players should be getting dropped with one another.

[maniacos]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 March 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

You moving out ahead in a tanky 'Mech on a push to take the hits makes it easier for your friends to shoot back while you get focused.

You are talking as if your team mates in PUG games actually give a damn for what you do and use the minimap and some tactical thinking to win a match. This might appear in higher skill levels where people actually know what they are doing or especially in group queue but in PUG when you actually play your role you won't get rewarded for that instead sometimes even punished because your team is too stupid to do what they are supposed to do and everyone goes after their own damage points and not to get the team winning.

[Y E O N N E]

maniacos, on 26 March 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

You are talking as if your team mates in PUG games actually give a damn for what you do and use the minimap and some tactical thinking to win a match. This might appear in higher skill levels where people actually know what they are doing or especially in group queue but in PUG when you actually play your role you won't get rewarded for that instead sometimes even punished because your team is too stupid to do what they are supposed to do and everyone goes after their own damage points and not to get the team winning.

You are talking as if I would do these things in a vacuum. I'm not going to push out ahead if I don't think I will get support. If my team seems to be on the ball, and we're all collectively moving for a push and I'm tanky, then yes, I will push ahead to take hits.

But, that's just one point from that post. There were several.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 March 2016 - 10:19 AM.