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#21 PurpleNinja

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 05:10 AM

View Postmaniacos, on 27 March 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

Another one who has not gotten the point.

What is the point?

#22 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 05:56 AM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 26 March 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

It seems there are 2 main aspects of the current PSR system people take issue with.

-Current PSR tiers are currently bound to matchmaker win/loss. The concern here is someone could be the best pilot in the game and they would lose every match if the matchmaker gave them a bad enough team. How good or bad a team the matchmaker allocates is a prime factor determining whether PSR rises or falls. Individual skill and team contributions are distant seconds.

-Damage is the 2nd mitigating factor which complicates matters due to damage being a relative rather than static variable. Depending on game modes and other factors there will be some games where each player scores an average of 400-500 damage on a win/loss. Other times each player will have an average of 200-300 damage at end game. That can make matters difficult if a hard coded static number is used to determine PSR increase/decrease. If damage and match score are relative rather than static variables, It might be more fair to grade on a curve.


The correct argument is that over the long term if you are consistently contributing more than average to your team and doing a certain amount of damage matchmaker occasionally screwing you or an occasional low damage score isn't going to hurt your PSR.

So stop worrying about a meaningless epeen system that nicely fulfills its only actual goal of keeping the veteran laser bulimic meta lords from clubbing the steam new seals so hard that they get scared off and stop playing.

#23 Lynx7725

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:20 AM

I'll like to point out that PSR stands for "Pilot Skill Rating", not "Personal Skill Rating".

The crux is that PGI isn't measuring your ability to use your own mech. That's a given pre-requisite -- an assumption PGI makes that you know how to handle your own mech.

PGI is measuring your ability to synchronize and mesh with a team. PSR measures team ability, not personal skill with a mech.

Take a close look at the non-damage score components. Most things in there requires at least 2 persons to act in conjunction, or are team-assisting in some way:

Kill Assist: One guy get the kill and the others get kill assists. So there are others.

Flanking: Well you sort of need someone else to be the main before you can flank.

Saviour Kill: You must contribute to a kill who was targeting someone else on your team.

Lance in Formation: You must have a Lance -- so team event.

And so on.

The problem is that damage is too big a component of match scoring, which affects PSR, and I suspect PGI would reduce that soon. But as a thought experiment, let's just strip away ALL damage-related match scoring, and what do we end up with?

Yup. Very minimum emphasis on the ability to kill things solo (there are still a few), much more on teamwork. At least, PGI's version of teamwork.

PSR isn't perfect. First, I'd like to reduce or remove the damage component of match scoring, even though that would hurt me quite severely. One possibility to emphasis the team aspect is to take all damage done by the team and distribute it evenly across everyone, instead of individual damage scoring.

Second, in specific, I'd like to request PGI to relook at the match score components related to light scouts. I depend heavily on light scouts to help me help the team, but their contributions seems to be regularly ignored. Though, once the damage component is reduced or removed, this may not be necessary.

#24 Dudeman3k

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 07:53 AM

How i see it. On a consistent basis, I will score over 700 dmg, maybe kill 1 or 2 (sometimes 5 -6 if we're winning) but ive lost more matches than I have ever won.

I do not play with a group, and I hate the idea of being stuck in a team with complete nubs (which happens, a lot), but Its good to know that as a player, I am not bad. becuase even with my incredible lossing streak I'm still in the T2 bracket carrying myself through it.

If you were to lighten up that grading system to the top 4, you risk bringing poor players into a higher bracket. It'll be like a participation trophy for just breathing. You can do a sub 200 dmg with a crap load out, and still manage an increase, and potentially make your way to a higher class... thats no good. It will hurt that poor player, and everyone he has to play with in a higher teir.

So.... no. No curves. seriously, if youre a teir 3 player, youre a tier 3 player for a reason

Edited by Dudeman3k, 28 March 2016 - 07:40 AM.


#25 Lynx7725

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 08:43 AM

Here's some interesting stats work.

I suggested earlier to remove the damage dealt components to the match score, which impacts PSR. So I went back over the last four games I played (3 wins, 1 loss), and tallied up, by team, ranked each player in each team according to their match scores, and compared the differences.

For assaults, they averaged a 7.2 placing in both cases. Meaning, damage output is surprisingly not a factor for them. I suspect their overall lack of mobility and general center of attention meant they have little choice but to work as a team.

For heavies, they averaged 6.3 under current, and 7.3 with no damage counted; remember this is position, so smaller numbers are better. So damage is a major component for heavy pilots. My current suspicion is that the balance of mobility and firepower a heavy has allows them to YOLO and solo at times, making them not good team players.

You might see where this is going...

For mediums, they averaged 5.6 under current and 4.7 with no damage counted. So, their (in)ability to throw firepower around hurts them, but they get compensated with some in-game rewards, which preferentially make them work as a team.

For lights, they averaged 7.1 under current and 5.5 (!) with no damage counted. It's fairly clear that counting damage as it is now heavily biases against lights, and ignoring damage shows how much lights can contribute to teams. However one has to consider that Cheaters and Jenner IICs are heavily featured in these matches, which are known to be heavy damage dealers (as in they can pick up match score for damage-related rewards) and not traditional light scouts. Still, quite telling.

So knowing this... here's the kicker.

PGI has a way bigger data set and is probably aware of this, and the #1 abuse I can think of is that gamers being gamers, if we either remove the damage component or we use the OP's ranking system, the general population would shift to playing the weight class that has the most benefits -- i.e., mediums or lights.

That would in turn penalizes the heavy and assault players and let's be a bit commercial at this point -- PGI sells heavy and assault mechs at a higher price than mediums and lights. It's also an unfair system in that for assaults, they have limited ways to achieve match score outside of dealing damage -- that's what they are built to do, after all.

So, not a simple problem. I suspect PGI is monitoring and will soon make an adjustment to the match score computation.

At any rate, my data set is limited and there are other factors involved and possibilities. I might dig more into this, but we'll see if I can find the time.

#26 Kubernetes

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 09:09 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 26 March 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:


I told the others, and I will tell it to you: Score only PSR change will turn this game into "Hide behind teammates and farm points warrior: Online". There will be no reason to be the first one to brave the enemy fire, no reason to lead the charge, no reason to act as a bait/distraction for the enemy, and even less reason to play Lights and Mediums. No reason to care about victory, as long as you get enough points to be the top 4 in the scoreboard. That's very flawed.


Yeah, currently you know it's good play to ignore the disarmed mechs and kill the guys who can still shoot back. If it were just about score, I'd just sit back and pour damage into that stalker popsicle.

And wins should matter. 20 loss streak? That sounds bad, but is anyone complaining about 20 win streaks? Good players will still come out ahead in the long run. As others have mentioned, there are no good players with < 1 WLR.

#27 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:20 AM

This weekend is the exact scenario to prove what is exactly wrong with this game. I've won a total of 6 games out of the last 40. I was in a game last night where I was grouped with someone that JUST bought their cadet bonus mech and I'm tier 3 and was, until this weekend, an eyelash short of going to tier 2. Every game, thus far, my team has given up the high ground, no matter what the map happens to be. Or players just do the stupidest of things like rushing solo into the tunnel, going solo one at a time into the teeth of a solid firing line, etc. This has been one of the worst weekends that I've ever had to deal with and, every time some one does something bad accidentally or simply out of being new or that bad, it forces everyone to have to pick up the slack. You can only do that to a certain level. I don't like the PSR and I hate that the w/l is so tied to it. But, short of redoing the entire thing, this is what we have for now.

#28 Chuck Jager

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:20 AM

View PostNarcissistic Martyr, on 27 March 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:


The correct argument is that over the long term if you are consistently contributing more than average to your team and doing a certain amount of damage matchmaker occasionally screwing you or an occasional low damage score isn't going to hurt your PSR.

So stop worrying about a meaningless epeen system that nicely fulfills its only actual goal of keeping the veteran laser bulimic meta lords from clubbing the steam new seals so hard that they get scared off and stop playing.

This was what was happening.

Now it is the Seals getting their revenge on the better players in solo Q. It is like the vets are driving the short yellow bus, and somebody locked the doors and told the seals that the driver ate all the fish.

I am pretty sure the tiers are not just 1 number, but they have levels. I do not have issues with the overall spread, but if folks are continually winning or losing, the spread within the tier should be adjusted. I would happily add another 1-2 minutes to my wait (that is always under 2minutes in a heavy during peak hours). I really just want to see folks who do not run away from the enemy when they have at least half the team beside them (they call it flanking and support).

#29 C E Dwyer

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:41 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 26 March 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:


I told the others, and I will tell it to you: Score only PSR change will turn this game into "Hide behind teammates and farm points warrior: Online". There will be no reason to be the first one to brave the enemy fire, no reason to lead the charge, no reason to act as a bait/distraction for the enemy, and even less reason to play Lights and Mediums. No reason to care about victory, as long as you get enough points to be the top 4 in the scoreboard. That's very flawed.

And removing MM will quite literally chase away the few thousand Steam players PGI managed to retain. I don't want to play against complete newbies, or even T3 players, and I am sure most of them do not wish to face me and get obliterated without doing much in return. All popular online games have some sort of matchmaking in them, and for good reason.


I do tend to agree with you, but we already have that situation, where people hide more interested in avoiding damage than dishing it out in the solo queue.

We do need a match making system, but what we have is badly flawed, and has been since it was concieved by he that should not be named.

Biggest flaw in it is it should have its upward bias removed, the conception that given time everyone will be equally skilled is an extremely ignorant and stupid assumption, naive at best, and until it is removed, it will fail to do its job and it will fail the community.

Trouble is if we lobby hard for just this simple change, you know from previous examples that even if we're listened to, it will take a year at least to be considered, when it needs changing now, and the master brain will not make a simple change but come up with a new master plan that will take a year to code, and also fail to do the job properly, and people will come here and vent and we'll have these kind of threads where we call each other names, but will change nothing, only Twitter works, and that rarely.

#30 Exilyth

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:52 AM

Assaults could benefit from damage taken rewards, then again, that might be too trivial an action to be rewarded.

View PostLynx7725, on 27 March 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

So I went back over the last four games I played (3 wins, 1 loss),


That's a horribly small sample size. Could you please keep track of this and report back when you have ratings for at least 100 matches? I'd be really interested to see whether the trends you identified keep stable/proportional on a larger sample.

Edited by Exilyth, 27 March 2016 - 10:55 AM.


#31 Lynx7725

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 11:00 AM

View PostExilyth, on 27 March 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

That's a horribly small sample size. Could you please keep track of this and report back when you have ratings for at least 100 matches? I'd be really interested to see whether the trends you identified keep stable/proportional on a larger sample.

Yeah it's a terrible sample size... mostly because entering data manually for 96 players is a pain in the posterior. I need to check to see if the guys who previously were crunching EoM screenshots has any database lying around, that'd simplify the matter a lot.

#32 Zoid

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 11:52 AM

As I have said before when this silly topic comes up, individual games do not matter. If you consistently perform well, your PSR goes up. If you perform poorly, it goes down. This is a team game and "performing well" means that you helped your team win. If you've played 1000 games and have over a 1:1 WLR, that should mean you help your team win more often than not.

The only (real) difference between PSR and ELO is that PSR does give you the ability to say "hey, my team just sucked and there wasn't anything I could do." ELO was purely WLR. You need about 500 damage in a given game to not have your PSR go down.

If you're upset about your PSR going down on a loss, you probably are someone whose PSR should be going down. You know the only time I see mine go down? When I bring a stupid 'mech or do stupid things to get myself killed stupidly. There are rare games when my team is just incredibly awful and all dead within 2 minutes but those don't really affect anything long term. I would perhaps agree that the top score should never go down in a loss, but even that is not necessary.

#33 Trauglodyte

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 12:07 PM

This is where I'm going to disagree with you, Zoid. I can't stop 11 people from either taking the absolute worst position on a map OR give up the high ground. I can't do anything about people that bring horrible builds or go afk for the entirety of a game. I can't do anything about people that don't know the concept of a firing line, taking cover, etc. The fact of the matter is that I can only do what I can do given what my team is doing. Leading people that refuse to be lead doesn't help me. I can't do anything to prevent that suicidal moron that wants to rush head long into a fight for whatever reason and die within the first 90s of a match. I don't like PSR because, as a Light scout, I get jack and sh!t credit for anything that I do and the predominate driver of PSR gains is ultimately winning, how long you lasted in a win, if you survived at the end of the win, how much damage you did, and how many kills/kill assists/kills most damage dealt you got. If I'm one of the last standing mechs in a 12-3 blowout, my PSR takes a hit because of absolutely nothing that I could have done to prevent the loss. I didn't tell 3 of my teammates to stand in back to back artillery drops - I shouted it out but they stood there like morons anyway so why does my PSR get negatively affected by people that barely have the brains to boot up a computer?

#34 maniacos

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 06:40 AM

View PostPurpleNinja, on 27 March 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

What is the point?

Read the thread. And I mean actually read and not just go "oh here someone has a critic he must be bad"


View PostTrauglodyte, on 27 March 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

This is where I'm going to disagree with you, Zoid. I can't stop 11 people from either taking the absolute worst position on a map OR give up the high ground. I can't do anything about people that bring horrible builds or go afk for the entirety of a game. I can't do anything about people that don't know the concept of a firing line, taking cover, etc. The fact of the matter is that I can only do what I can do given what my team is doing. Leading people that refuse to be lead doesn't help me. I can't do anything to prevent that suicidal moron that wants to rush head long into a fight for whatever reason and die within the first 90s of a match. I don't like PSR because, as a Light scout, I get jack and sh!t credit for anything that I do and the predominate driver of PSR gains is ultimately winning, how long you lasted in a win, if you survived at the end of the win, how much damage you did, and how many kills/kill assists/kills most damage dealt you got. If I'm one of the last standing mechs in a 12-3 blowout, my PSR takes a hit because of absolutely nothing that I could have done to prevent the loss. I didn't tell 3 of my teammates to stand in back to back artillery drops - I shouted it out but they stood there like morons anyway so why does my PSR get negatively affected by people that barely have the brains to boot up a computer?


This
But you will be told, that "good players" allone will pull the whole team and dominate a 12er singlehanded. If you don't you aint good. Youre supposed to score 800 dmg at least every match, no matter if you go a scouting light or a fatlas or dire.

Edited by maniacos, 28 March 2016 - 06:45 AM.


#35 wamX

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 06:53 AM

View Postsycocys, on 26 March 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

My tier level is pretty well based on my ability to consistently shell out 500+ damage in solo queue.

~50% w/l ratio, but I climb steadily because when I drop in solo my PSR ranking almost always goes upwards or stays even.

Group queue my numbers drop, but I also play with mechs that aren't built for group queue play.


My Win/Loss Ratio is above 50%, and i do decently in my games, more often than not im gaining PSR ranking...yet, I havent budged out of T4.

And when I say decently, I on average can get 2 or 3 kills, 500 plus damage and 9 ish assists. Im in the fight, and i survive most of my matches.

I frequently play with/against friends who somehow are T2 and T3 and I perform just as well, maybe a little under them, but I stay on par with their performance.

So...If T4 and T5 were for people who needed serious help...why am I down here with experience since beta under my belt, while other people fresh after install get T3 in 4 games?

#36 Dudeman3k

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 07:10 AM

View PostwamX, on 28 March 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:


My Win/Loss Ratio is above 50%, and i do decently in my games, more often than not im gaining PSR ranking...yet, I havent budged out of T4.

And when I say decently, I on average can get 2 or 3 kills, 500 plus damage and 9 ish assists. Im in the fight, and i survive most of my matches.

I frequently play with/against friends who somehow are T2 and T3 and I perform just as well, maybe a little under them, but I stay on par with their performance.

So...If T4 and T5 were for people who needed serious help...why am I down here with experience since beta under my belt, while other people fresh after install get T3 in 4 games?


well, first I would really really like to believe you do play as well as you say... but if youre stuck at T4, that says otherwise.

Some screen shots would be nice, for instance.

I can say it took me 2 days to get out of T4, about a month to get out of T3. I honestly don't play too often (I only dedicate play during events, otherwise I just do 4-5 matches a night)

What confuses me about your what youre saying wamX, is that that is my usual score all the time, and I had no trouble breaking out of teirs.... so why are you??

1.) your account is broke
2.) thats not actually your consistent scores

please help us out

#37 El Bandito

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 07:26 AM

View PostwamX, on 28 March 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

My Win/Loss Ratio is above 50%, and i do decently in my games, more often than not im gaining PSR ranking...yet, I havent budged out of T4.

And when I say decently, I on average can get 2 or 3 kills, 500 plus damage and 9 ish assists. Im in the fight, and i survive most of my matches.

I frequently play with/against friends who somehow are T2 and T3 and I perform just as well, maybe a little under them, but I stay on par with their performance.

So...If T4 and T5 were for people who needed serious help...why am I down here with experience since beta under my belt, while other people fresh after install get T3 in 4 games?


Maybe you are not as good as you claim? Show me the stats of your last 30 games, or keep track of them from now and show me 30 games later. Then we can have a clearer picture to talk about.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 March 2016 - 07:28 AM.


#38 RussianWolf

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 08:09 AM

View PostDudeman3k, on 28 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:


well, first I would really really like to believe you do play as well as you say... but if youre stuck at T4, that says otherwise.

Some screen shots would be nice, for instance.

I can say it took me 2 days to get out of T4, about a month to get out of T3. I honestly don't play too often (I only dedicate play during events, otherwise I just do 4-5 matches a night)

What confuses me about your what youre saying wamX, is that that is my usual score all the time, and I had no trouble breaking out of teirs.... so why are you??

1.) your account is broke
2.) thats not actually your consistent scores

please help us out

there is a bias regarding number of matches played since PSR took effect (1/1/15). The more matches played, the smaller the movements (since they are averaged). I have a vid from my alt account that I hadn't played since sometime in 2014 (so completely new as far as PSR was concerned). I played one match in a Trial Stormcrow, I think, and moved from T5 to T4 with a sizable jump.

My regular account took much longer as, even with better matches, the PSR movements were much smaller. Took nearly a month to move up to T4 (granted it was lower in T5 as I had just mastered my urbies in stock mode) and a little over a month from then to move to T3.

They really need to remove the averaging and make the movements more consistent. If you get a match score of XXX, then you get a YYY point movement in your PSR. Period. Done. That will keep the newer players in the lower levels for a longer period.

View PostCathy, on 27 March 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:


I do tend to agree with you, but we already have that situation, where people hide more interested in avoiding damage than dishing it out in the solo queue.

We do need a match making system, but what we have is badly flawed, and has been since it was concieved by he that should not be named.

Biggest flaw in it is it should have its upward bias removed, the conception that given time everyone will be equally skilled is an extremely ignorant and stupid assumption, naive at best, and until it is removed, it will fail to do its job and it will fail the community.

Trouble is if we lobby hard for just this simple change, you know from previous examples that even if we're listened to, it will take a year at least to be considered, when it needs changing now, and the master brain will not make a simple change but come up with a new master plan that will take a year to code, and also fail to do the job properly, and people will come here and vent and we'll have these kind of threads where we call each other names, but will change nothing, only Twitter works, and that rarely.

There is also the matches played bias that need to be taken out. Right now, the fewer matches player the bigger your PSR jumps. This basically makes it where new players, with a bit of luck in being on the winning team more often than not, jump up to T4 and T3 too fast.

#39 wamX

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 05:50 PM

View PostDudeman3k, on 28 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:


well, first I would really really like to believe you do play as well as you say... but if youre stuck at T4, that says otherwise.

Some screen shots would be nice, for instance.

I can say it took me 2 days to get out of T4, about a month to get out of T3. I honestly don't play too often (I only dedicate play during events, otherwise I just do 4-5 matches a night)

What confuses me about your what youre saying wamX, is that that is my usual score all the time, and I had no trouble breaking out of teirs.... so why are you??

1.) your account is broke
2.) thats not actually your consistent scores

please help us out


http://assets-cloud....nal/3553954.jpg

http://assets-cloud....nal/3518215.jpg

http://assets.enjin....15-15.53.15.jpg

some games of mine.

#40 Zoid

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 06:45 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 27 March 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

This is where I'm going to disagree with you, Zoid. I can't stop 11 people from either taking the absolute worst position on a map OR give up the high ground. I can't do anything about people that bring horrible builds or go afk for the entirety of a game. I can't do anything about people that don't know the concept of a firing line, taking cover, etc. The fact of the matter is that I can only do what I can do given what my team is doing. Leading people that refuse to be lead doesn't help me. I can't do anything to prevent that suicidal moron that wants to rush head long into a fight for whatever reason and die within the first 90s of a match. I don't like PSR because, as a Light scout, I get jack and sh!t credit for anything that I do and the predominate driver of PSR gains is ultimately winning, how long you lasted in a win, if you survived at the end of the win, how much damage you did, and how many kills/kill assists/kills most damage dealt you got. If I'm one of the last standing mechs in a 12-3 blowout, my PSR takes a hit because of absolutely nothing that I could have done to prevent the loss. I didn't tell 3 of my teammates to stand in back to back artillery drops - I shouted it out but they stood there like morons anyway so why does my PSR get negatively affected by people that barely have the brains to boot up a computer?



If what you're doing is actually helping your team out, your PSR will go up on the average. Otherwise, you're not being as great a player as you think you are.

Again, individual games do not matter. What matters is that you helped your team win more often than you made them lose. The matchmaker is not sticking you with all the idiots every single game.

Seriously guys, it's not that hard. I drove an LRM Atlas into Tier 1. If your PSR isn't moving up, you're doing it very wrong.

Edited by Zoid, 28 March 2016 - 06:48 PM.






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