108 replies to this topic

[Saga Koto]

It's about the power. Power over other players. Power over the game. When you lack it in RL, you tend to do what it takes fufill what is missing inside. Even if that is cheating in a game.

[ClawSmasha]

Just attempted it on Total War: Shogun 2 the multiplayer campaign. If anything I think it's because it drives players crazy trying to figure out how you're winning and the satifaction you could gain from that. The other reason is is that it gives you the undeniable win. As said somewhere above, to some it's the fact that you win not how you win. Personally it takes the fun out of trying in the games.

[sumdumfu]

i've sort of come to the conclusion that a lot of online cheaters are just undiagnosed sociopaths - they have little or no comprehension of right and wrong, they just want the recognition.

for me any competitive endeavor isn't about winning, but about defining your abilities in comparison to your fellow players, and in doing so finding out about yourself. cheating would only cheat me of this little pearl of self-wisdom; i'd have no idea what my true abilities were, and what i needed to improve upon. i think in the end, cheaters just rob themselves a lot of personal growth and wisdom. i think that's why a lot of them (even older ones) are rather childish and self-centered.

Edited by sumdumfu, 14 July 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[Grugore]

Thanks for all the feedback guys and gals. This is the best online gaming community in the world, And I love you all. See you on the battlefield.

[Dhimmi]

because cheaters are imho always imature/insecure on some lvl

[FelixBlucher]

Well, I have only cheated in single player, but I suspect that at least a few people think along the same lines. I found it fun to cheat in different ways because it afforded new oppertunities that I didn't have before. It also is a light mood enhancer, since losing or losing badly is no fun when you are in a bad mood. Whether or not it is done to make others have a bad day is up in the air, I would say that it depends on the person in that perspective. On Half-Life I liked to go through walls, get the cool weapons, and use them to kill those annoying scientists at the beginning of the game. In Minecraft I gave myself unlimited blocks of various types so that I could have fun building without limit (some people see that as cheating).
I would tend to agree with others, it can be a matter of perspective. One show I watched talked about how one serial killer got the same joy out of killing that he did from something like playing games or something else that we consider really fun. He didn't see it as wrong, he just was going out to have a good time. Unfortunatly, his fun ruined other people's lives. Now, cut that down by a few thousand fold and you might have the mentality of a cheater. I guess that we can be thankful that they are just killing us virtually, and not out killing us in real life. :-)

[Lipot]

Grugore, on 14 July 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Since you mention it, I have a friend who's played several online strategy games where cheating is rampant. admin doesn't care. They ignore repeated complaints from the other players. Take EVE online for example. The game is dying because the developers are also players, and have stacked the odds in their favor. Yes they cheat. Pretty sad.

EVE Online is not a great example due to the fact that the game type basically is a very open, do as you wish concept. While GM's and Devs in that game do have "immortal" avatars for some things, there are player kill mails where the dev in the victim. I tend to find cheating more rampant in fps' such as Counter-Strike and CoD. The reasoning is that most of the people in those games love to dominate and humiliate their opponents. I am not sure if it is because of some sort of deep seeded emotional issue or just lashing out in a way that doesn't really have any consequences to their actions.

[Belorion]

Cheaters have serious self esteam issues. The great irony is that cheating only deepens their issues.

Edited by Belorion, 14 July 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Taidan]

Cheaters cheat because on the topic of their own self-worth, they value the judgement of others more than they value their own judgement.

Yeah, basically a low self-esteem thing.

[Jfrost]

Viper69, on 14 July 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

People have cheated since man has started keeping score. From stick ball to kick ball even connect four. If winning means more than the game itself is when cheaters arise. No amount of contemplation of the reasons for doing it will change their existence.

Anyone else think Viper was rocking out a poem after reading the first two lines?

People have cheated since man started keeping score.
From stick ball to kick ball and even connect four,
When winning means more than a game's enjoyment,
The user desperately needs some employment.

I tried to stay true to your message Viper, I hope it gets your seal of approval

[Homadais]

I'll admit I have cheted on single player games only. Keep in mind this is only against an AI not people. Never on an MMO though I have thought about it at times. I might like the game but It does not mean I want to do the same grind over an over agin. Just some MMo's the grinds can be to long. The only games in have ever cheted at are some FPS just to get past a really tough spot. But mostly RTS's. There are some of them that do not let a person play it anyway the choose. Some RTS's may be fun but force you to play a certain way. Well what if you find that to difficult. Well then a little cheating should not hurt, just my expeiance.
I would however never cheat aginst another person. Cause I know how I would feel about them using it against me.
Cheat your self fine cheat others in anyway wrong wrong wrong.

[Wirecutter]

there are different types of cheating, and the reasons behind their usage changes accordingly.
there are many cases where cheating takes the fun out of a game and removes the sense of acomplishment one may get from it.
at its most base level however, most reasons boil down to the player deriving some sort of fun/recognition/sense of achievement from a direction that the game developers did not intend.

item duping may be used by someone who hates to grind.
it may also be used by someone who simply wants to have an easy time owning mobs/other people, or to feel richer than other people.
someone who really likes a unique weapon or comsumable may also dupe it to get a few more to play around with.
also, its possible the person involved derives a sense of acomplishment from the very act of being able to find an exploit not many people know about.. kind of like the rush some people get from doing something forbidden.

[Viper69]

Jfrost, on 14 July 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Anyone else think Viper was rocking out a poem after reading the first two lines?

People have cheated since man started keeping score.
From stick ball to kick ball and even connect four,
When winning means more than a game's enjoyment,
The user desperately needs some employment.

I tried to stay true to your message Viper, I hope it gets your seal of approval

Haha excellent!

[Grugore]

Some people cheat just to be mean. I have a friend who played Evony. You're not supposed to be able to lose your last city, but while he was playing, he did just that. Afterwards, there was a laughing skull on his screen. He complained to admin, but their response was, oh ******* well.

[Strum Wealh]

As far as potentially addressing "the psychology of a cheater", there was an interesting article in American Fencing Magazine titled "Cheating, Gamesmanship or just Tactical Use of the Rules".
For reference, the article's author, one Jeff Bukantz, is an accomplished fencer; he had served as the captain of the 2004 and 2008 United States Olympic fencing teams.

At the time of its publishing (around April 2010), it was a rather controversial article.

One of the (somewhat less controversial) examples given in said article:

Quote

At the 2007 World Championships in St. Petersburg, Russia, [US fencer] Seth Kelsey was leading France’s Eric Boisse by one touch with less than two minutes left in the third period of their bout to reach the top eight. Kelsey already had a yellow card [a low-tier penalty that serves as a "warning"].

All of a sudden, Boisse retreated two steps and dropped his weapon arm in the quintessential passive stance. Kelsey took the bait and retreated two steps, as well. After all, he was leading and the onus should never have been on him to attack.

Within a couple of seconds, the referee called a halt and a war whoop of glee went up from the French contingent. Both fencers received a yellow card for non-combativity. Since Kelsey already had a card, his became a red card [a higher-tier penalty that awards a point to the opponent]. And, on one of the greatest tactical ploys ever, Boisse had tied the score. He went on to win the bout, and reach the finals of the World Championships, over the flustered Kelsey.

By contrast, here is another (more controversial) example from the same article:

Quote

While leading by one touch in a bout with less than a minute to go, the [high school] fencer noticed that her foil had no tip. Amazingly, the youngster kept it to herself and continued to fence. She knew that while she could not score a touch, ANY touch scored by her opponent would have to be nullified because of her missing tip and inability to score. In addition, she realized that the clock would be winding down throughout the entire process.

Here is the discussion of the article on the US-based Fencing.Net discussion forum, and here is the corresponding discussion on the UK-based fencing discussion forum.
And here is a potentially-interesting discussion regarding the potential distinction (or, perhaps, potential blurring) between seeking a competitive advantage and cheating

About a year later (January 2011), due to a couple of different topics being discussed at the time, I had brought up the example on MekTek's MW4 forum, to see what people thought about it then.
That discussion can be read here.

Unfortunately, the full text of article itself doesn't seem to be available online.
Though, a scan of the latter half is (as of this posting) viewable here.

So, to mirror some of my queries from the MekTek forum posting:

1.) What, to you, constitutes "cheating"? What, to you, constitutes "gamesmanship"? What, to you, constitutes "tactical use of the rules to gain an advantage"?
2.) How do you differentiate the three categories? Where do you draw the line between each classification? Why do you use those particular criteria?

[Outrider01]

bebopper, on 14 July 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

the only reason I can think of for someone to cheat might be low selfesteam even then I dont think most people would get much out of a win if they had to cheat to get it

Scimitar, on 14 July 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Honestly man I don't know why people feel the need to cheat. I guess some people just aren't as good as other players and just can't accept that =\

Dhimmi, on 14 July 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

because cheaters are imho always imature/insecure on some lvl

Belorion, on 14 July 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

Cheaters have serious self esteam is
sues. The great irony is that cheating only deepens their issues.

taidan, on 14 July 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

Cheaters cheat because on the topic of their own self-worth, they value the judgement of others more than they value their own judgement.

Yeah, basically a low self-esteem thing.

5 Guys that don't get the human mentality. Its not self esteem for a cheater, just as much as you are naive but won't admit it. Take a huge step back, take the fact that humans do it to gain an advantage to win. Thats it, thats all the reason to do it is to win.

1. Musket Warfare - Every man stands in a line, waits to be shot while taking aim, he fires, after reloading he steps back and reloads. Now for example is it cheating if during the American Revolutionary war that the Colonial forces didn't stand in a line and just fired from the treeline? Yeah, probably considered cowardly by the British forces...but it worked because 1) The Colonial forces didn't have the manpower that the British Empire did 2) By reducing your casualties and inflicting more on the enemy its not a cowardly/cheating reason...its an advantage to win.

2. German Blitzkreig - Fast pace warfare of which no one had ever concieved using massive cannons on tracks and protected with thick armor that only another cannon on tracks can destroy. Now for example...is it cowardly and/or cheating to bypass the French Maginot line and attack through another country that the French had never thought possible? Nope, the reason was...an advantage to win and it worked because no one expected fast pace warfare to bypass entrenched fortifications.

3. Middle East Conflict - Still dragging on to this day though its finally starting to die down after a decade that was started by a crazy goat *******. We all know how it started, but did you ever consider the fact that the war dragged on for so long was like the American Revolutionary war? The insurgents didn't use convential tactics, they didn't have tanks or air support of their own to counter what the US military could bring so they went back to the history books and used the same tactics against the US that they used against the British redcoats...guerrila tactics involving IED to counter armored vehicles and terrorist attacks involving walking bombs to cause unplanned attacks in areas you would least expect...pretty much like not standing in a formation waiting to be killed and shooting officers to disrupt the command line.

To sum it up, its not cowardly or self esteem issues to win. If you judge it by non-biased thoughts, its to gain an advantage which all humans do because its in our nature. Soldiers wear body armor (advantage) to prevent themselves from dying to gunshot wounds, the other side uses armor piercing bullets to counter the body armor (advantage). But when you bring it to the most basic level, one side would say its cowardly to use bullets to bypass their armor while the other side its cowardly to wear that armor since one side does't have it. Yet...both sides do it to win by an advantage over the enemy. A game is a whole other issue of which I don't condone as well, don't just leap to conclusions because its against your moral code...you as a human would do anything to win by advantage if giving the chance (Hell, humans are the only living organism on the planet that cheats if you think about it; hostile enviorment so we build shelter, we got a disease but we cure it by natural progression it could kill us if not treated)

[Baron Kreight]

Why do students cheat on exam sessions? Why do husbands cheat on their wifes? Why do politics lie? Stop asking rethorical questions fo focks sake!

[Sean von Steinike]

Stat whores seem more prone to cheat.

[Grugore]

Baron Kreight, on 14 July 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Why do students cheat on exam sessions? Why do husbands cheat on their wifes? Why do politics lie? Stop asking rethorical questions fo focks sake!

I specifically asked that no trolls participate in this discussion, which leads me to question your ability to follow directions, not to mention, your intelligence.

[Grugore]

Outrider01, on 14 July 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

5 Guys that don't get the human mentality. Its not self esteem for a cheater, just as much as you are naive but won't admit it. Take a huge step back, take the fact that humans do it to gain an advantage to win. Thats it, thats all the reason to do it is to win.

1. Musket Warfare - Every man stands in a line, waits to be shot while taking aim, he fires, after reloading he steps back and reloads. Now for example is it cheating if during the American Revolutionary war that the Colonial forces didn't stand in a line and just fired from the treeline? Yeah, probably considered cowardly by the British forces...but it worked because 1) The Colonial forces didn't have the manpower that the British Empire did 2) By reducing your casualties and inflicting more on the enemy its not a cowardly/cheating reason...its an advantage to win.

2. German Blitzkreig - Fast pace warfare of which no one had ever concieved using massive cannons on tracks and protected with thick armor that only another cannon on tracks can destroy. Now for example...is it cowardly and/or cheating to bypass the French Maginot line and attack through another country that the French had never thought possible? Nope, the reason was...an advantage to win and it worked because no one expected fast pace warfare to bypass entrenched fortifications.

3. Middle East Conflict - Still dragging on to this day though its finally starting to die down after a decade that was started by a crazy goat *******. We all know how it started, but did you ever consider the fact that the war dragged on for so long was like the American Revolutionary war? The insurgents didn't use convential tactics, they didn't have tanks or air support of their own to counter what the US military could bring so they went back to the history books and used the same tactics against the US that they used against the British redcoats...guerrila tactics involving IED to counter armored vehicles and terrorist attacks involving walking bombs to cause unplanned attacks in areas you would least expect...pretty much like not standing in a formation waiting to be killed and shooting officers to disrupt the command line.

To sum it up, its not cowardly or self esteem issues to win. If you judge it by non-biased thoughts, its to gain an advantage which all humans do because its in our nature. Soldiers wear body armor (advantage) to prevent themselves from dying to gunshot wounds, the other side uses armor piercing bullets to counter the body armor (advantage). But when you bring it to the most basic level, one side would say its cowardly to use bullets to bypass their armor while the other side its cowardly to wear that armor since one side does't have it. Yet...both sides do it to win by an advantage over the enemy. A game is a whole other issue of which I don't condone as well, don't just leap to conclusions because its against your moral code...you as a human would do anything to win by advantage if giving the chance (Hell, humans are the only living organism on the planet that cheats if you think about it; hostile enviorment so we build shelter, we got a disease but we cure it by natural progression it could kill us if not treated)

I think you're the one who doesn't get it. This post is discussing people who hack games in order to gain an unfair advantage over other players, thus ruining the game for others. There are people who do it just to **** with people. I know this for a fact. They do it just because they like causing pain and misery to others. Competitive advantage is one thing, and your reasons for it may be accurate, but some people cheat just to make other people miserable.