93 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Combat role, while it lacks ECM, it is (very slightly) more durable and also mounts more DHS which allow it to do more damage. More often I'd take a JR7-IIC-A instead of an ACH unless I needed a scout which the ACH still is the most capable at. It is also runs ERMLs much better since you can drop the engine down for DHS (and if the Viper could drop 6 JJs, it would be near as good with 6 ERML too).

But the Viper carries an ACH-level payload, so it doesn't compete with the JR7 for that (alleged) role. It can't carry more weapons and it can't carry more DHS. It's a fat ACH without ECM.

The JR7's hitboxes are also far worse than the ACH's, so while it nominally has slightly greater armor and internal structure, it is NOT actually more durable. The Viper will be, at least in theory, but I suspect that the Viper's Nova-like geometry will mean that it actually isn't any more survivable either.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I'm considering the following builds for the Viper:

5 ER Medium Lasers
9 ER Small Lasers
6 Small Pulse Lasers + 2 Flamers

It won't be an amazing mech, but it should be fun enough to take every now and again.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

But the Viper carries an ACH-level payload, so it doesn't compete with the JR7 for that (alleged) role. It can't carry more weapons and it can't carry more DHS. It's a fat ACH without ECM.

It can carry one more DHS (since it doesn't mount ECM) and can asym load to mount another DHS on top of having all true dubs. It won't be better than the ACH for the tonnage, but it will still be solid, and quirks boosting the tankiness of this mech and maybe minor heat gen quirks to help compensate for having too many JJs might help make it compete with even the JR7-IIC-A. I'm not arguing this will beat the ACH or JR7-IIC-A, but people are acting like it needs to beat them to even be considered a solid/good mech when that line can often be very thin.

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

The JR7's hitboxes are also far worse than the ACH's, so while it nominally has slightly greater armor and internal structure, it is NOT actually more durable.

Far worse is a bit of an exaggeration, because again, where the weapons are mounted matter, and the Cheetah is more easily neutered which is definitely detrimental, it also tends to be easier to leg. Either way the JR7-IIC is often used with the ACH, with one used over the other depending on the situation.

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

but I suspect that the Viper's Nova-like geometry will mean that it actually isn't any more survivable either.

While it shares the Nova's legs, that's where the similarities end. It has more in common with the Raven and Crab than it does with the Nova when it comes to the torso.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

ACH has 8 tons of payload vs 8.5 for the Viper. You can carry the same 4 "extra" DHS on the ACH if you carry 6 CERSL instead of CSPL, so the only difference between them is the single extra truedub.

No one carries that on an ACH, though. Why do you suppose that is?

Hint: burn time is vital on a fast-moving Light.

Or because with only 6 hardpoints, the 6spl (more punch) make more sense, but with 9 hardpoints, your options are different.

For those who aren't stuck in 1 dimensional thinking.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Far worse is a bit of an exaggeration, because again, where the weapons are mounted matter, and the Cheetah is more easily neutered which is definitely detrimental, it also tends to be easier to leg. Either way the JR7-IIC is often used with the ACH, with one used over the other depending on the situation.

have to take your word for it. I find the Jenner IIC one of the easiest Lights in the game to hit, leg and kill. Still find ACH able to spread damage, including to legs, annoyingly well.

Weirder to me was a CGBI drop I was in recently where I heard the my Clan pals grousing about the FS9s being better than ACH.... which must have happened while I was away in the states, because I still seldom see FS9 anywhere....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

have to take your word for it. I find the Jenner IIC one of the easiest Lights in the game to hit, leg and kill. Still find ACH able to spread damage, including to legs, annoyingly well.

Depends on the situation, Jenners are easier to take out at range, but get more benefit in brawls because their legs are often concealed by their torso making hitting legs not always the optimal method. It may just be because Jenners are easier to take out but are just more threatening that makes them feel that way.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Weirder to me was a CGBI drop I was in recently where I heard the my Clan pals grousing about the FS9s being better than ACH.... which must have happened while I was away in the states, because I still seldom see FS9 anywhere....

Naw, just clanners whining about something that beat them, ACH is still better than the FS9. Wolfhounds get about as much use as the FS9, which one gets used is map and restriction dependent.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 03:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Depends on the situation, Jenners are easier to take out at range, but get more benefit in brawls because their legs are often concealed by their torso making hitting legs not always the optimal method. It may just be because Jenners are easier to take out but are just more threatening that makes them feel that way.


Naw, just clanners whining about something that beat them, ACH is still better than the FS9. Wolfhounds get about as much use as the FS9, which one gets used is map and restriction dependent.

Thx for the update on that... things do shift from time to time, but that certainly didn't "feel" right or pass my personal, but lately admittedly limited, eyeball test.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Depends on the situation, Jenners are easier to take out at range, but get more benefit in brawls because their legs are often concealed by their torso making hitting legs not always the optimal method. It may just be because Jenners are easier to take out but are just more threatening that makes them feel that way.

They certainly pack a lot more firepower...

Quote

Naw, just clanners whining about something that beat them, ACH is still better than the FS9. Wolfhounds get about as much use as the FS9, which one gets used is map and restriction dependent.

I am not so sure about this...the FS9 is a really good mech. It has better range, better heat efficiency, shorter duration weapons, and the versatility to be built to be faster, or just as jumpy depending on preferences.

[Roadkill]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 April 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Or because with only 6 hardpoints, the 6spl (more punch) make more sense, but with 9 hardpoints, your options are different.

For those who aren't stuck in 1 dimensional thinking.

Not really. Using more hardpoints generates more heat, and 6 CSPL is already pushing the limit of heat efficiency on the Mech. One extra DHS isn't going to help that much once you start adding extra lasers.

My point was that the Mech already runs pretty hot, yet no one does the obvious in order to correct the heat problem. That tells me that burn time is a big deal.

With CERSL on the Viper you'll need to add an extra CERSL just to get back to ACH 6 CSPL levels of firepower. 1 CERSL needs 4 DHS to balance the heat, so at best you're breaking even but without getting ECM.

Furthermore, the ACH can have 7 hardpoints if you give up the ECM. (ACH-C.) Which no one does, because ECM >>> another laser. It might not be better than 3 more lasers, but at that point your heat efficiency is so silly that the comparison no longer matters.

Again, I'm not saying it's going to be DOA, just that it seems pretty obvious that it isn't going to compete with the ACH and that it won't be able to make efficient use of 9E hardpoints. It might ultimately turn out to be a viable alternative to the JR7-IIC-A, but I doubt even that. It just smells to much like JR7-F vs CDA-3M to me, but without getting the 3M's ECM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

I am not so sure about this...the FS9 is a really good mech. It has better range, better heat efficiency, shorter duration weapons, and the versatility to be built to be faster, or just as jumpy depending on preferences.

No Gyrok, just no.

The science has been done and the FS9 has been found wanting in comparison.

Roadkill, on 04 April 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

It just smells to much like JR7-F vs CDA-2A to me

FTFY

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 April 2016 - 04:05 PM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 04:04 PM, said:

The science has been done and the FS9 has been found wanting in comparison.

Link plox?

[Seal Farmer]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 April 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

5 ERML - all torso mounted for decent poking
6 ERML - for side poking with more firepower
6 SPL - for being a more heat efficient and effective brawler (cheetah is more useful for scouting than brawls)
9 ERSL - You listed this, not sure how much I will like it, but may try it out because it can.
1 Flamer/4 SPL/4 MG - Troll mech, probably not too useful, but will be fun at least.
2 ERLL - Trolly but may but could give the SCat competition for ERLL role since the 3 ERLL Scat is hot and the Viper is able to constantly run fast, but considering its usage on the Cheetah (ie none in higher tiers) I wouldn't really expect much out of it.

Either way, I still wish we had gotten this over the Fridge, it will probably need quirks just like any other 40 ton Clan omni, but the potential is definitely there.

ERPPC and some backup small lasers or MG i will probably try.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 04 April 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

Link plox?

We don't have vids of our internal scrims, you can generally tell just by what a unit uses in actual matches, I think you would be hard pressed to find FS9s outside the first drop the div A of MRBC or in MSI outside the first drop.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 April 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

We don't have vids of our internal scrims, you can generally tell just by what a unit uses in actual matches, I think you would be hard pressed to find FS9s outside the first drop the div A of MRBC or in MSI outside the first drop.

Given all the Div A and Div B stuff I have watched, I am not really 100% on what matches included more FS9s; however, I am quite certain I have seen lots of them in MRBC. Did not pay much attention to MSI admittedly.