1049 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

ScarecrowES, on 06 April 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

3059 starts probably the most exciting era for Battletech play, and I'd like PGI to get it right... or at least close enough.

In your opinion.

Many of us feel the Pre Clan Invasion was more so. Some say the Clan Invasion was. So who does PGI listen to? IMO, they've beat the 3059 and after to death, the last 2 MW titles, in Mechcommander.

[ScarecrowES]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

In your opinion.

Many of us feel the Pre Clan Invasion was more so. Some say the Clan Invasion was. So who does PGI listen to? IMO, they've beat the 3059 and after to death, the last 2 MW titles, in Mechcommander.

I like the pre-Invasion era too. Basic House-on-House combat. Simpler rules, easier balancing. Most of my TT play time was spent in the pre-Invasion era. I have a soft spot in my heart for it. Somewhere in a box in my parents' attic there's still a box with a Warhammer on the front and a bunch of little plastic robots inside.

But the thing that makes 3059 great... much better than the early Clan Invasion certainly, is it both changes the status quo for factions AND finally balances out tech bases with all the added IS and Clan tech that came out late in the Invasion. It undoes a lot of the wrongs from the introduction of the Clans and clan-tech. The early Invasion was a mess. It was basically a race between you and your buddies to get to Clan-tech, and then you abandoned all your old IS mechs, no matter what faction you aligned with - because everything Clan was simply superior. 3059 evened the playing field. More new tech was introduced toward the tail end of the Clan Invasion than had been introduced during any period up to that point (not counting the initial Clan drop). And it finally let Clanners fight on either side of the conflict. Wardens be warding. I dunno... I think that's all pretty exciting.

Honestly, 3049 to 3058 was just... such a boring era to be playing. The stories were fun... I love how the early invasion was done in Mech 2: Mercs. And playing through the Invasion up to Tukkayyid would have been fun if it had been done justice in CW... but let's face it, for what CW is, 3059 is a MUCH better state for MWO to be in than 3050. If only from the perspective of where you can finally get some balance in the game, give a state to introduce new tech from, and generally improve the quality of play in Faction Warfare. 3059-3060 is about perfect for what MWO wants to be.

[Metus regem]

I've got to disagree Scarecrow, 3059+ was the start of a massive downward spiral right into the dumpster fire that is dark age. For me, the best time was pre operation Bulldog.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 06 April 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

I've got to disagree Scarecrow, 3059+ was the start of a massive downward spiral right into the dumpster fire that is dark age. For me, the best time was pre operation Bulldog.

There was a lot going on before Dark Age though (a special kind of hell THAT was). Bulldog, Refusal, Civil War, Jihad. But yeah, opinions and ********... all that.

I tend to think if you're going to build a game around an Inner Sphere at war, dividing the whole into two factions, and hope to have any semblance of balance or purpose to the gameplay, you're really not going to get better than 3059-3060. All you've basically got is the Clan Invasion era to fit the bill, and certainly the end of that is the best part from a gameplay perspective.

You know, or to hell with the post-clan eras and just go back to 3025 like the new game. So much more simple, yeah? But you miss out on so much with such limited scope.

[Bishop Steiner]

ScarecrowES, on 06 April 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

I like the pre-Invasion era too. Basic House-on-House combat. Simpler rules, easier balancing. Most of my TT play time was spent in the pre-Invasion era. I have a soft spot in my heart for it. Somewhere in a box in my parents' attic there's still a box with a Warhammer on the front and a bunch of little plastic robots inside.

But the thing that makes 3059 great... much better than the early Clan Invasion certainly, is it both changes the status quo for factions AND finally balances out tech bases with all the added IS and Clan tech that came out late in the Invasion. It undoes a lot of the wrongs from the introduction of the Clans and clan-tech. The early Invasion was a mess. It was basically a race between you and your buddies to get to Clan-tech, and then you abandoned all your old IS mechs, no matter what faction you aligned with - because everything Clan was simply superior. 3059 evened the playing field. More new tech was introduced toward the tail end of the Clan Invasion than had been introduced during any period up to that point (not counting the initial Clan drop). And it finally let Clanners fight on either side of the conflict. Wardens be warding. I dunno... I think that's all pretty exciting.

Honestly, 3049 to 3058 was just... such a boring era to be playing. The stories were fun... I love how the early invasion was done in Mech 2: Mercs. And playing through the Invasion up to Tukkayyid would have been fun if it had been done justice in CW... but let's face it, for what CW is, 3059 is a MUCH better state for MWO to be in than 3050. If only from the perspective of where you can finally get some balance in the game, give a state to introduce new tech from, and generally improve the quality of play in Faction Warfare. 3059-3060 is about perfect for what MWO wants to be.

See, what you call "balance" I called the change from Power Creep to Power Drag Race.

But I was the crazy guy who never monty hall¡d clan tech into his campaigns, despite most of my friends wanting to and coming up with the usual "look our whole merc regiment is Clan Tech" garbage. I prefer Pre Invasion, but most of my fondest memories included dismantling Clan Units with my outgunned and Obsolete IS Tech Unit.

Of course, if they ever let me duplicate my tactics in CW, I'd be the most hated man in MWO (ok, I might be that already, according to the Reddiots )... since my Merc Unit was based about 250 Aerospace Fighters, and heavy use of mobile artillery (I had 3 wings of modified Yellowjacket Gunships all carrying Arrow IV instead of Gauss) so if people thought Arty and Air is out of control now, or how it used to be?



and then the Mechs and Jump Infantry moved in to sweep up the pieces. (it's amazing how affordable an aerospace based unit actually was....)

[ScarecrowES]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

See, what you call "balance" I called the change from Power Creep to Power Drag Race.

But I was the crazy guy who never monty hall¡d clan tech into his campaigns, despite most of my friends wanting to and coming up with the usual "look our whole merc regiment is Clan Tech" garbage. I prefer Pre Invasion, but most of my fondest memories included dismantling Clan Units with my outgunned and Obsolete IS Tech Unit.

Of course, if they ever let me duplicate my tactics in CW, I'd be the most hated man in MWO (ok, I might be that already, according to the Reddiots )... since my Merc Unit was based about 250 Aerospace Fighters, and heavy use of mobile artillery (I had 3 wings of modified Yellowjacket Gunships all carrying Arrow IV instead of Gauss) so if people thought Arty and Air is out of control now, or how it used to be?


and then the Mechs and Jump Infantry moved in to sweep up the pieces. (it's amazing how affordable an aerospace based unit actually was....)

Drag race is an interesting description. I can't say it'd be a wrong one, looking at MWO for analog. If the coming of the Clans sped up the game dramatically, new IS and Clan tech basically meant that it wasn't always the IS side going down first. In fairness though, even for PnP RPGs, Battletech was notoriously slow to play prior to the Clan Invasion. It DID afford you the opportunity to do more because you had more rolls to work with but still.

The advantage MWO has over TT in regards to arms races is that we have the ability to modify the rules on whim to reset balancing. That couldn't really be done in TT. There are a lot of ways we can still increase TTK, and it's unlikely new tech will have a great impact on reducing that as-handled by MWO. I think the current state of low-weight, cool-running laser vomit will never be topped by any new tech that could be dropped into the game. Even heavy lasers (more vomit) would fair worse under MWO's ruleset than current lasers.

But this is a specific conversation that's way off-topic. More direct to the point, I don't think anything we'll see coming available by 3059 will have a dramatic negative impact on balancing if we can just get away from this ridiculous notion that we need parity between Clan and IS tech on a weapon-by-weapon basis. I've always maintained that shifting to that era and then opening up tech divisions would go a long way to finally getting this game balanced by dropping the single biggest conceit holding balancing back - the notion that Clan and IS tech should perform more or less exactly the same. I say equally, across the broad spectrum of the tech... different, certainly, with each tech base performing different things better than the other... but not the same.

Plus, it just makes the game so much more simple. We can drop mechs to the right factions, and those folks that INSIST on trying to use the MkII in Clan camo can still do that. Balancing, easier. Game states for CW, more intuitive. Actual endgame scenarios for CW increased to 3 from 1. Etc. And new tech (yay!) could be dropped into a game state where new tech would have the least amount of negative balancing effect for faction-on-faction combat.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

In your opinion.

Many of us feel the Pre Clan Invasion was more so. Some say the Clan Invasion was. So who does PGI listen to? IMO, they've beat the 3059 and after to death, the last 2 MW titles, in Mechcommander.

Good that why they have Battletech by HBS comming out so you TT guys can quit trying to mold Mechwarrior into a table top nightmare.

[Bishop Steiner]

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 06 April 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

Good that why they have Battletech by HBS comming out so you TT guys can quit trying to mold Mechwarrior into a table top nightmare.

yes, much better to let it finish degenerating into another mindless point and click generic shooter for simpletons! Definitely much better than trying to hold the Devs accountable to what they advertised it as, and sold 5 million in crowdfunding for.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

yes, much better to let it finish degenerating into another mindless point and click generic shooter for simpletons! Definitely much better than trying to hold the Devs accountable to what they advertised it as, and sold 5 million in crowdfunding for.

It's been that since day one, a lot of the steam users thought it was too hard and didn't even make it past the tutorial. The game is simple to those who have played Mechwarrior for years. For users that haven't touched the game it's kinda like this.

Edited by DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, 06 April 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[Gyrok]

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 06 April 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

It's been that since day one, a lot of the steam users thought it was too hard and didn't even make it past the tutorial. The game is simple to those who have played Mechwarrior for years. For users that haven't touched the game it's kinda like this.

That is for EVE...by the way...

With the other MMOs being WOW, SWTOR, and UO

Edited by Gyrok, 06 April 2016 - 08:23 PM.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Gyrok, on 06 April 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

That is for EVE...by the way...

With the other MMOs being WOW, SWTOR, and UO

No really? It works for many games the shoe fit so I had MWO wear it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 06 April 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

yes, much better to let it finish degenerating into another mindless point and click generic shooter for simpletons! Definitely much better than trying to hold the Devs accountable to what they advertised it as, and sold 5 million in crowdfunding for.

Its not a mindless point and click generic shooter.

Its only mindless if you derp in the solo queue all the time.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2016 - 09:15 PM, said:

Its not a mindless point and click generic shooter.

Its only mindless if you derp in the solo queue all the time.

mmmhmmm.

[Seal Farmer]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2016 - 09:15 PM, said:

Its not a mindless point and click generic shooter.

Its only mindless if you derp in the solo queue all the time.

Some people play with a team and use tactics, others can only play it like mindless sheep i guess.

[CK16]

So any one know a hero for the Night Gyr?

[Imperius]

ScarecrowES, on 07 April 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

I'm having a ridiculously hard time trying to peg exactly what defines a worthwhile mech for you. You seem to argue against all mechs - including those with attributes that you then tout as a reason to drop the MkII in the game.

It's almost as if you're so single-minded that you literally cannot fathom a choice other than the specific one you want.

So... the "MkII in 2016" campaign. I think you can safely give up on that now. It'd be a totally honorable thing to bow out gracefully from that nonsense. You can finally get out from under the weight of championing a lost cause and take a step out into the light. Trust us, it's ok out here.

I'm telling you to buy the mechs you push for. Mech selling is PGI's business if you're going to rally for a mech go right ahead but you better buy it or shut your mouth. Look at the viper, I've seen its one of my favorite mechs that I asked for but I can't buy it at that price... Lol really? Each mech you rally for and don't buy hurts PGI's bottom line. I put my money where my mouth is, I expect you to do the same or sit back. If you're waiting for the mechs as c-bills your input is invalid. C-bills don't keep the lights on.

Edited by Imperius, 07 April 2016 - 05:40 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Imperius, on 07 April 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

I'm telling you to buy the mechs you push for. Mech selling is PGI's business if you're going to rally for a mech go right ahead but you better buy it or shut your mouth. Look at the viper, I've seen its one of my favorite mechs that I asked for but I can't buy it at that price... Lol really? Each mech you rally for and don't buy hurts PGI's bottom line. I put my money where my mouth is, I expect you to do the same or sit back. If you're waiting for the mechs as c-bills your input is invalid. C-bills don't keep the lights on.

I've bought every clan package as a rule to myself because I play for Clan and would rather spend the time XPing them and collecting CBills to upgrade them to be useful to the unit I'm in than having a limited selection of clan mechs. Meanwhile I collect almost all of my IS mechs through CBills and love every chassis I earn, spare the select few I've purchased (UrbanMech, Archer, St. Ives, etc) for special reasons.

Meanwhile I've championed or the Urbie and bought it, and since the second clan wave when the only 2 mechs unreleased were the firemoth and Viper, I've heavily championed for the Viper every chance I got and now...finally...ITS HERE. So you know what I did? I clicked that full purchase button.

I know I've said this to you before, and as much as I also want the MkII (but seriously it needs a MWO makeover to get rid of those hideous spindly and fragile limbs), there are at least several other Clan mechs within timeline that need to come first.

Edit: Or, at the very least which follow the rules Russ laid out.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 07 April 2016 - 05:56 PM.

[Imperius]

Go ahead and say those mechs need to come out then, but you better buy each one. If you do that we have nothing to argue over, I'm going to take it you bought the viper then. If not your words aren't true.

Edited by Imperius, 07 April 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Imperius, on 07 April 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

Go ahead and say those mechs need to come out then, but you better buy each one. If you do that we have nothing to argue over, I'm going to take it you bought the viper then. If not your words aren't true.

I literally...

MauttyKoray, on 07 April 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

So you know what I did? I clicked that full purchase button.

[Imperius]

MauttyKoray, on 07 April 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

I literally...

Good, keep doing it