1049 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 April 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

pilot skill vs relative mech worth are not one and the same.

You take almost any of those Vindi Jocks and stick them in a Stormcrow or Hunchback, and 99% of them will do far better in those other 2 designs. Because they are not cursed with a mix of indisputable issues, like low hardpoints and too large a game model.

I appreciate how you and CDLord try to promote the concept that all mechs are good, but objectively speaking, it's not true. It's a matter of some people have the skill set or playstyle to make a substandard perform function, and sometimes function pretty well. But none of that changes the objective realities of comparative mobilities, hardpoint quantity/quality, physical geometry/hitboxes, etc.

If I stuck to my TBRs and SCRs I would have been tier 1 6 months ago. Because I prefer and have more fun in my non Meta, but objectively speaking, inferior mechs, I am mucking slowly through tier 2 (and probably have backslid thanks to Archer/Rifleman grinding...ugh!)

qft

Bishop Steiner, on 11 April 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Exactly what a a sizable number of players make it do. Work.

So according to your world view, why do we have any mechs in the game outside of 35, 55, 75, 85 and 100 tons? Those seem to be the only "proper" weights.

Except the best light in the game is a 30 tonner, the best heavies in battletech in general were 65 and 70 tonners, and some of the best assaults are 85-90 tons. Remember the victor? The Highlander? The Cataphract? The Thunderbolt? The Stalker? The Dragon? Have you not seen what blackjacks can do? What hellbringers and cauldron borns can STILL do? Can you imagine what a Nova Cat could do? What a summoner could do if it wasn't ****** by build rules?

Every mech should have a place and a use and should present you with build options. If the TT loadout does not allow for this, it SHOULD be changed. I know PGI will never do that, but thats what should happen.

One of my favourite mechs in MWO for a long time, and indeed one of my first, was the dragon. The dragon was scary back when you could dragon bowl, and scary even after that, because hit reg was bad enough it was hard to hit it.

Edited by pbiggz, 11 April 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

If the TT loadout does not allow for this, it SHOULD be changed. I know PGI will never do that, but thats what should happen.

And this is why I get a little tired of the convos, in truth. You know it the reality. I certainly am not against the occasional Thread or post about it in this escenarios, but you can derail whole threads opining about something you know WON'T happen when the rest of us want to discuss things that will, or we might plausibly see happen.

Continued arguing over something you acknowledge yourself will not be, really serves what purpose?

If we spent more time comparing the pros and cons of mechs and the game that we have, we would probably all be less salty and more productive. And less prone to let confirmation bias and other things color our posts.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 April 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[LastKhan]

"they had to keep the lights on for 10 years,"

Eh pretty positive Mektek was all freeware. They took donations but its wasnt like a full on business And the lights part, it was just a forum / website.

Edited by LastKhan, 11 April 2016 - 10:45 AM.

[pbiggz]

LastKhan, on 11 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

"they had to keep the lights on for 10 years,"

Eh pretty positive Mektek was all freeware. They took donations but its wasnt like a full on business And the lights part, it was just a forum.

Where would mechwarrior be if mektek didn't do what they did. I promise you ALOT less people would be playing now.

[Pariah Devalis]

LastKhan, on 11 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

"they had to keep the lights on for 10 years,"

Eh pretty positive Mektek was all freeware. They took donations but its wasnt like a full on business And the lights part, it was just a forum.

Well... and some MW4 servers to plug into the game.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Where would mechwarrior be if mektek didn't do what they did. I promise you ALOT less people would be playing now.

Non Sequitur.

[Bishop Steiner]

LastKhan, on 11 April 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

"they had to keep the lights on for 10 years,"

Eh pretty positive Mektek was all freeware. They took donations but its wasnt like a full on business And the lights part, it was just a forum.

Like any such projects, it became a little bit about ego, and people introducing pet and house TT designs. I don't begrudge them that as a freeware Mod, but as a sanctioned game? I certainly do not wan't PGI going down that route, especially when there are still canon mechs available that players do want, no matter how much other players want to dismiss those mechs.

How much do you think Impy and Biggz would be for supporting apocryphal mechs if they were getting introduced instead of the mkII, or back when they were considering th Summoner, decided it was a crap mech (which in fairness, in TT comparatively speaking it was, no matter how much I like it) and introduced a Tenchi instead?

They'd be pissed. And IMO; rightly so.

Just like I'd be pissed if they added a Pitbull and ignored the assassin or Vulcan. (Though the basic design for Mektek's Assassin II has potential).

They did a lot of good things, but as an official Battletech/Mechwarrior game, that's certainly not a route I want to see PGI take as long as there is 1 single canon mech that even 1 customer/fan wants.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Where would mechwarrior be if mektek didn't do what they did. I promise you ALOT less people would be playing now.

Moving goal posts?

[LastKhan]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Well... and some MW4 servers to plug into the game.



Non Sequitur.

Thats where some the donations went towards but the most online servers was mostly was self hosted.

also, used the way back machine and felt a bit of nostalgia when i was on the old mektek site / forum.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Non Sequitur.

not at all?

Mektek proved there was still interest in the mechwarrior computer game IP. The demand for a new mechwarrior game was obvious. Without mektek, we probably wouldn't have had anyone make living legends, and PGI would probably not have seen a fertile market for a new mechwarrior game.

ps:

im surprised people get so twisted up into knots over mektek. get over it people, they did more good for mechwarrior than i think alot of people here are willing to admit. We'd be in a worse place today without them.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

not at all?

Mektek proved there was still interest in the mechwarrior computer game IP. The demand for a new mechwarrior game was obvious. Without mektek, we probably wouldn't have had anyone make living legends, and PGI would probably not have seen a fertile market for a new mechwarrior game.

You treated MekTek like a company. It was shown not to be a company. You followed up with an unrelated comment that shifts it away from company vs not a company, which was the subject matter being discussed, and moved to a new goalpost; a hypothetical "what if" situation that MekTek did not exist.

None of us can answer that question. We can guess that Mechwarrior would not be as popular now as it is. Then again, MechAssault more than likely had a much larger impact on future mechwarrior players than MekTek. MekTek kept MW4 running, but MechAssault exposed console players to the universe. An, at that time, untapped community of players.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

You treated MekTek like a company. It was shown not to be a company. You followed up with an unrelated comment that shifts it away from company vs not a company, which was the subject matter being discussed, and moved to a new goalpost; a hypothetical "what if" situation that MekTek did not exist.

None of us can answer that question. We can guess that Mechwarrior would not be as popular now as it is. Then again, MechAssault more than likely had a much larger impact on future mechwarrior players than MekTek. MekTek kept MW4 running, but MechAssault exposed console players to the universe. An, at that time, untapped community of players.

But they are a company, and even if they didn't operate like one back then, everything they did still costed money, and they gave it to us for free. Keeping the lights on was perhaps not the best turn of phrase to describe what mektek did. How about maintaining interest in a dying IP. Happy now?

And that guess, that mechwarrior might not be as popular now without mektek, is a pretty safe guess.

MechAssault on the other hand, is pretty much the reason we didn't get mechwarrior 5 from microsoft. At the time M$ needed an xbox launch title, and they cancelled mechwarrior 5 (or mechwarrior prime, whatever it was called), which was in early alpha, in order to move resources over to mechassault 1. Alot of people here don't like mechassault for that reason. I for one had lots of fun with it but i never played the multiplayer.

But why is any of this being debated now? Why are people so butthurt about mektek that they'll pick apart my writing patterns to try to make arguments against them?

Edited by pbiggz, 11 April 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

But they are a company, and even if they didn't operate like one back then, everything they did still costed money, and they gave it to us for free. Keeping the lights on was perhaps not the best turn of phrase to describe what mektek did. How about maintaining interest in a dying IP. Happy now?

And that guess, that mechwarrior might not be as popular now without mektek, is a pretty safe guess.

MechAssault on the other hand, is pretty much the reason we didn't get mechwarrior 5 from microsoft. At the time M$ needed an xbox launch title, and they cancelled mechwarrior 5 (or mechwarrior prime, whatever it was called), which was in early alpha, in order to move resources over to mechassault 1. Alot of people here don't like mechassault for that reason. I for one had lots of fun with it but i never played the multiplayer.

But why is any of this being debated now? Why are people so butthurt about mektek that they'll pick apart my writing patterns to try to make arguments against them?

Quite frankly, I don't give a frak when it comes to the MekTek argument, either way. All in all, they did some good, they did some bad. There was a back and forth between you and one other person about MekTek contamination, and whether or not it is a good or bad thing for a game. It boils down to opinion, and as such everyone has one and they frequently clash.

Personally? One of the things I didn't like about the base game MW4 was how little respect it gave to the mechs it represented, due to the mechlab mechanics. Not that I dislike sized hardpoints, but that they went and threw out stock builds and drastically redesigned mechs for no real good reason. Things were altered too much from the source, in my personal opinion. You are free to disagree. MW4 did several things very right, though.

Then MekTek came and they introduced more mechs, which is always a good thing. Except, arguably, introducing custom mechs. Again, it seems, to me, like a disservice and lack of respect to the intellectual property in that they altered it with no prior authorization from rights holders. They just invented stuff for the sake of inventing stuff. Mostly, the weapons they invented or introduced pissed me off and screwed with balance. Then they started altering other things seemingly unnecessarily. So, personally? I think MekTek started off as a good thing, but turned into something less than ideal.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 11:16 AM.

[1453 R]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

but at the end of the day, its a 40 tonner. Its less armed and armoured than a proper medium, and slower than a proper light, so what's it supposed to do?

At 129kph stock w/locked cXL, the Viper is exactly as fast as the (arguable) best light ‘Mech in the game. It is also better armed than the Cheetah, with 8.5t pod space with absolute max (sensible) armor as compared to the Cheetah’s 7t (easy shaves make it 9t to 7t, a not-inconsiderable advantage for the Viper), has several options for gaining far more hardpoints to use that 8.5t with than the Cheetah does, and will come with significantly improved jump capability.

Many arguments for the Pouncer were made on the same basis you argue the Viper will be junk on – it’s too big to be a light, it’s too undergunned to be a medium, so bring in something that shoots well instead. Here’s the thing, though – if you take a ‘Mech like the Pouncer, which sacrifices a great deal of speed/mobility for weaponry…it ends up with 15.5t pod space. That’s a lot when one weighs it against a 40t chassis, but it’s still only 15.5t pod space. That’s the same pod space, more or less, which is considered generally insufficient on the ten-tons-heavier Nova, and which would be considered absolutely disastrous on the 65-ton Linebacker.

Just like there’s only so fast ‘Mechs above a certain size can realistically go (Mr. Gargles is the same problem mirror-imaged at the other end of the spectrum), there’s only so much additional weaponry you can cram onto ‘Mechs below a certain size no matter how slow you make them go. 40-tonners are a cusp weight between ‘Light’ and ‘Medium’; they’re best served by emulating the build preferences and combat styles of the lighter machines they’re next to on the line-up.

In my view, the Viper is going to be more effective than the Pouncer ever could be. Sure, the Pouncer could put in work – like Bish said, some pilots can put in work even in something like a Vindicator, and some folks have a thing for ‘Mechs that punch above their weight the same way I have a thing for ‘Mechs that move like something twenty tons lighter might. But at this weight range? You’re better off goin’ fast and picking your stings carefully, something the hypermobile Viper should be quite good at.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

not at all?

Mektek proved there was still interest in the mechwarrior computer game IP. The demand for a new mechwarrior game was obvious. Without mektek, we probably wouldn't have had anyone make living legends, and PGI would probably not have seen a fertile market for a new mechwarrior game.

ps:

im surprised people get so twisted up into knots over mektek. get over it people, they did more good for mechwarrior than i think alot of people here are willing to admit. We'd be in a worse place today without them.

Who's getting twisted up?. Most of us repect the Mektek team and played their mod.

But we also don't love everything they did or were planning on. And again there's a huge difference between some fan boy modders adding non Canon mech chassis to the game, and an official one. That's not the same ad people getting "twisted up".

Only person getting twisted up seems to be you. And I love watching you move the goalposts. Seriously. If they had added the Pitbull instead of the Summoner, or the Warlord instead of the mkII, how would that sit with you?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 April 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

The tenchi is cool and i'd be happy to see it in another mechwarrior game, but I don't have any particular wanting for non-canon mechs, for the record. As for what mektek did to many of the mechs they added, that isn't a problem. Again, they had to keep the lights on for 10 years, and they did a pretty good job, I don't know what you were expecting because for every "non-canon" mech they added they added 4 canon ones, including everyone's precious wasp and whatever else.

My problem was that many of those mechs were pretty crappy in comparison to their snowflake designs. Power creep was rampant in the mektek mods, and it isn't something I want to see here either, even though it has already happened on several occasions.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Can you imagine a stock banshee in mw4? that thing was undergunned in CBT, it would have been non-functional in 4. They had an obligation to add FUNCTIONING content to their game so they did it. I don't know why everyone gets so worked up at that concept. The TROs are not the bible, in fact, when it comes to mechwarrior games, they are useless.

I think you misunderstand what I'm even rallying against, the Banshee stock is terrible in both TT and any MW series, just like how PGI felt obligated to give it 8 hardpoints when it only had 3 weapons stock or how they stock build would've been altered to not suck completely in MW4 (even though hardpoints would've been improved just like they were in MWO). Though MW4 works perfectly fine even when stick to CBT tonnage numbers as it was done in quite a couple of mods (though with engines being adjustable on Omnis). Either way, I'm not even talking about comparing stock configs.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

but at the end of the day, its a 40 tonner. Its less armed and armoured than a proper medium, and slower than a proper light, so what's it supposed to do?

Be an "assault-light" as was aptly termed by someone in another thread? At 8/12 (Cheetah speed), they have more the best combination of armor/structure and free tonnage than even 35 tonners, they just need to have solid hitboxes and not be super sized in comparison.

pbiggz, on 11 April 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

Except the best light in the game is a 30 tonner

Wrong, its 35 tons, and both are Jenners.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 April 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Imperius, on 11 April 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

There is no difference between why you to stick to the timeline and why I want to skip what I consider junk.

Yeah, its that some of us don't consider stuff currently in the timeline to be junk, period.

Such a conspiracy

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 April 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Imperius, on 11 April 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

No conspiracy it's already known fact, but that's off topic.

Back on topic!

There is no difference between why you to stick to the timeline and why I want to skip what I consider junk.

In other words: It's opinion.

You disagree with one person's opinion? It's OK to disagree. Conflicting thoughts create discourse and further more conversation and ideas. HOW one disagrees is where things can fall apart.

Unfortunately for your personal opinion in the matter, the guy who makes the decisions decided to go in a way that counters your own preference. That is unfortunate for you, and to that I empathize. However, I also empathize with those who have mechs they don't want skipped and understand that they should have just as much of a right to getting them. As such, there's no point on tearing open an unsealed wound constantly.

You only end up hurting yourself, since clearly the big boss isn't listening to your opinion anyways. He doesn't listen to many of my ideas, either. As said in Rick and Morty, one has a choice to take things personally or not. I figure I have too much stress in life as is, so eff it. It's a video game. I'll do my best to let the decisions made in it not bother me. You can either poke fun at it or cry yourself to sleep. I know which choice I take.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Imperius]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 April 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Yeah, its that some of us don't consider stuff currently in the timeline to be junk, period.

Such a conspiracy

Sales are what determin what's junk or not. Too bad we don't get to see sales nunmbers.

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 11 April 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Their goal is to list as many mechs as they can ahead the Mad Cat MK II just to spite me.

I think you have an overly high opinion of your self Imperius, as I don't know you in reality, the amount of thought I give you at anytime is non-existant. Those mechs I listed are all very strong mechs, well maybe not the Supernova, but the rest of those Assault mechs sure are.

The irony of your 'perfect' Mad Cat Mk II, is that it is actually badly designed. If it wanted to be more efficient it would be 85t. at 85t the engine is smaller (lighter; XL340 vs XL 360), the JJ's are 1t rather than 2t meaning you can max out the movement on it, and even up armour it to 11t rather than the stock 10t on it, all while keeping the stock armament. This is just a hard truth about the Mk. II, there is no bias, no agenda, just facts that 5t lighter would make it a better mech.

[LastKhan]

It seems he is in fact the constant offender cause he keeps bringing this crap up. Maybe just trolling to get a rise out of people which craps on his "these forums back in the day were gud!" Practically why he shouldnt be taken seriously. People themselves can go back and see its him that constantly brings up the same rage induced comments even when explained to him that hes wrong or incorrect.

Edited by LastKhan, 11 April 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Imperius, on 11 April 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

Sales are what determin what's junk or not. Too bad we don't get to see sales nunmbers.

So too bad by your own standard you have exactly ZERO idea what is junk, or not.

Go figure