54 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

again mechwarrior was successful game franchise because of the clan invasion. thats what people remembered most from battletech. And its what the franchise was built around for many years.

I think people gifting me Armorcast models of only Clan Mechs speaks volumes on what made the Mechwarrior games successful.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Except I never once said clan players should have more fun than IS players.

Having better tech does not equate to having more fun. That is a flawed and completely wrong way of thinking.

Starcraft2 proves how wrong that thinking is. Protoss are not more fun than Zerg because they have higher tech. Different races just play different.

Same with Clan and IS. While Clan players focus more on individual accolade and personal honor. IS players would focus more on teamwork, unit cohesion, and completing the objective as a unit.

And the way you would accomplish that is by giving IS mechs equipment like C3 networks which would allow them to work better as a team than Clans. IS mechs would have better situational awareness and be better able to communicate information to their teammates. Making them a more cohesive fighting force.



Um I can list countless games where people did in fact play the weak guy and had immense fun doing so. Take aliens vs predator for example. Aliens were typically much weaker than humans or predators but people still played them because they could do things neither humans or predators couldnt do (like climb on walls/ceilings).

Even though Clan tech is superior to IS tech doesnt mean IS still cant do things Clans cant do. That is the key fact that you dont seem to understand. C3 networks for example are one such advantage IS had over clans. Even though C3 networks were lowtech by clan standards, the concept of networking mechs and working together as a cohesive unit was foreign to clan pilots because they competed with eachother for kills/personal achivements.

There are tons of ways 12v10 couldve been balanced asymmetrically so that players would still want to play both clans and IS. Again that was a failing on PGI's behalf...

As I said, lack of imagination and creativity doomed the Clan implementation in MWO.

Jay Leon Hart, on 08 April 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

Just... no. Each Zergling isn't controlled by a player. Bad analogy is bad.

Actually, if viewed from a team vs. team perspective, it is very much valid. The problem is that much of the current player base does not want to play as a team and as such only view MWO from an individual's perspective. Why else would we really have a separate solo queue for CW?

As I have been saying for a while now, half(?) of the problems facing MWO can be traced back to the player base.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

every game in mechwarrior franchise has clan mechs. it always has. thats one of the draws of the franchise.

not having clan mechs at all wouldve been a bigger mistake than not balancing clan mechs properly.

The original Mechwarrior.

The original mechwarrior had 0 clan mechs.

You'd be correct in saying every mechwearrior game from 2 on had clan mechs, but the original mechwarrior on DOS only had IS mechs.

PGI could have been 100% validated by saying they were making an upgraded, multiplayer only remake of the classic Mechwarrior, and been 100% fine with a 3025 era start.


People always argue "But mechwarrior always had clanners abloo, abloo!"

No, it bloody well did not.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mystere, on 08 April 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Actually, if viewed from a team vs. team perspective, it is very much valid. The problem is that much of the current player base does not want to play as a team and as such only view MWO from an individual's perspective. Why else would we really have a separate solo queue for CW?

As I have been saying for a while now, half(?) of the problems facing MWO can be traced back to the player base.

Well, it *is* a bunch of individuals, choosing whether or not to listen to any instructions and/or have any teamwork. A unit in a RTS can not choose to ignore your orders, the comparison is poor. Other team based games? Sure. Evolve is the best example that springs to mind with regards to asymmetrical PVP. That game did really well, yes? Actually, scratch that, Left 4 Dead did it pretty well - 1 special infected is no match for a survivor and 1 survivor is no match for a Tank.

[Tristan Winter]

I agree. I wish MWO was an online version of Mechwarrior 2:Mercenaries, basically. I would like to see something more true to Battletech lore. However, the only way to represent Battletech properly is to either have some sort of battle value representation or a fully working dynamic economy. There's no easy fix, the whole game would need to have been designed differently from the start.

Cheap version:

• Respawns in every game, just like Community Warfare. You balance the powerful Clan mechs by increasing respawn times, effectively making them outnumbered all the time, and possibly also by implementing some sort of Battlevalue, so a Nova is worth a lot more than an Ice Ferret

Proper version:

• Go full EVE Online meets Mechwarrior 2. Proper economy. Contracts. Fluctuating prices. Proper repair & rearm. Logistics. Make people weep when they lose a mech, but permit people to retreat from battle as well, to fight another day.

[Dawnstealer]

I was thinking about this: maybe the fix isn't to step back in the timeline, but a good ways forward. Go to a time when the Clans aren't so homogeneous and the IS has begun to catch up in technology. Things are a bit more hazy around the time of the Jihad, if I recall right. Some of the Clans are fighting for the IS, some of the IS is fighting the IS, etc, etc. Maybe a more interesting game, from the balance perspective.

[Khobai]

Quote

the original mechwarrior on DOS only had IS mechs.

but did it sell as well as mechwarrior2? nope. not even close. again because mechwarrior 2 had clans.

every mechwarrior game without clans has been commercially unsuccessful.

[Stelar 7]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

but did it sell as well as mechwarrior2? nope. not even close. again because mechwarrior 2 had clans.

every mechwarrior game without clans has been commercially unsuccessful.

Because everyone wants to be the twinks?

I've read through this thread, you have a bad case of believing your opinions are facts. Hi I'm one of the Battletech fans who would prefer the Clans never existed, or had at least been implemented properly.

However that ship has sailed and I strongly endorse PGI in making each mech viable. 12 v 12 is best. Results from combat in videogames should be based on player skill, not who got the twinkie mechs.

[Kanil]

12v10 wouldn't work. Most people will want to play the faction that gets 50% more kills...

I do wonder what the Light OP arguments would look like in an XL-less world. People would have to come up with an excuse other than lag shield...

Edit: And no DHS! Just like closed beta! Alphas so low it'd take forever to kill those light 'mechs, too.

Edited by Kanil, 08 April 2016 - 02:47 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Damia Savon, on 08 April 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Clans were crap on the TT and crap in Mechwarrior. The best Battletech was Pre-Clan.

You kind of forget the Clans started with a minimal population of mostly battlemech pilots and a limited resource base. They landed on resource poor worlds and then they engaged in their own version of the succession wars.

Then you have Kerensky the sociopath running off with 800 people and turning everyone of his dad's ideas on its head. If his dad hadn't been dead, he would have cut off his son's head and shat in the stump. But these 800 people turned into magical Mary Sue super warriors and came back to engage in even more mindless destruction.

Then Clan Wolverine was annhilated because they didn't kiss their sociopathic leader's ***. Then it was the Widowmakers and so forth.

Despite all their "honor" the Clan's have been just as wantonly violent and destructive in their early years as the succession wars. "Realistically" the Clans should be a bunch of nerf herders on the edge of the galaxy and not a super technological force of doom. Their starting population, numbers and lack of a real tech base don't support it.

Given the insane Clan tech superiority 10 vs 12 is too generous. 5 vs 12 is much more realistic.

Personally I am rather happy at how PGI went. The only thing better would be tossing the Clans in the trash like the TT is desperately trying to do.

Amen brother!

[RussianWolf]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Except I never once said clan players should have more fun than IS players.

Having better tech does not equate to having more fun. That is a flawed and completely wrong way of thinking.

Starcraft2 proves how wrong that thinking is. Protoss are not more fun than Zerg because they have higher tech. Different races just play different.

Same with Clan and IS. While Clan players focus more on individual accolade and personal honor. IS players would focus more on teamwork, unit cohesion, and completing the objective as a unit.

And the way you would accomplish that is by giving IS mechs equipment like C3 networks which would allow them to work better as a team than Clans. IS mechs would have better situational awareness and be better able to communicate information to their teammates. Making them a more cohesive fighting force.



Um I can list countless games where people did in fact play the weak guy and had immense fun doing so. Take aliens vs predator for example. Aliens were typically much weaker than humans or predators but people still played them because they could do things neither humans or predators couldnt do (like climb on walls/ceilings).

Even though Clan tech is superior to IS tech doesnt mean IS still cant do things Clans cant do. That is the key fact that you dont seem to understand. C3 networks for example are one such advantage IS had over clans. Even though C3 networks were lowtech by clan standards, the concept of networking mechs and working together as a cohesive unit was foreign to clan pilots because they competed with eachother for kills/personal achivements.

There are tons of ways 12v10 couldve been balanced asymmetrically so that players would still want to play both clans and IS. Again that was a failing on PGI's behalf...

I have yet to see anyone playing as a clanner in this game.

You may drive clan mechs, but it seems all of you break clan rules of engagement which was one of the balancing factors in the books/TT.

I'll wait for the obligatory "well, gimme my OP clan mechs and unlocked mechlab so I can put 84 small lasers all over my chassis and make every mech look the same if I want, then and only then will I think about following clan rules"

[ChapeL]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

but did it sell as well as mechwarrior2? nope. not even close. again because mechwarrior 2 had clans.

every mechwarrior game without clans has been commercially unsuccessful.

You're jumping to the wrong comclusion here

MW2 31st century combat sold as well as it did because it was one of the first 3D games on the market on top of being bundled with videocards from here to Taiwan

[Hound of War]

You just need to look at the game around the time when the Phoenix pack came out , we had then a strong player base (just look at the Sarahs Jenner , that was one of the most heart warming things I have ever seen a gaming community ever do) and then came the clan mechs and drove a wedge though us all.PGI could have used the succesion wars to buy some time and do the clan invasion right i.e. asymmetric balancing( wich they said they couldent get working) ,diffrent score calculations (kill assist for a clanner??? Pffft!) and even split currency (whats a clanner suppose to do with c-bills?) come to mind. Of course they did a good job at modeling the clan mechs but did a terrible job at keeping the game fun and the community together. As a big fan of Battletech sience the 80's (Tabletop,fan fiction and PC) I do enjoy having a big stompy robot game to play, but I just wish for a Battletech game .

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2E was the BEST edition of D&D. Wizards of the coast simplified, and sold out. Imagine how awesome the world would be right now, if instead of moving past the best edition we had simply tweaked and improved it....

Oh wait, wrong thread?

[ChapeL]

One thing to keep in mind through all this is that, at the time of the announcement of the Clan invasion ( the 8 mechs pack ) IGP was still holding the purse. I can't find the source anymore but as the story goes they were the ones to push for the Clan's release at that moment ( along with gold mechs) because they knew, as Khobai's point validly states, that the clans had a large following and their mechs for sale would bring much $$$. They were right about that. We can debate all day/night that it was too soon, that the game went open beta too soo, etc... but this is what we have now.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Khobai, on 08 April 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

but did it sell as well as mechwarrior2? nope. not even close. again because mechwarrior 2 had clans.

every mechwarrior game without clans has been commercially unsuccessful.

Well, let's look shall we, while finding actual information on "copies sold" of Mechwarrior DOS is difficult to nail down, the reception of the game was overwhelmingly positive, with an average rating of 80% across multiple gaming publications. combine that with ports of the game to the Sharp X68000 japanese home computer as "Battletech", and a port [though with major changes] on the SNES home console using the system's Mode 7 Graphics capabilities. We can be assured that the classic Mechwarrior sold quiet well actually.

As was stated by ChapeL, Mechwarrior 2 had the benefit of being bundled with damn near every single video card accelerator chip known to man in the mid 90's. So can you really consider that as "copies sold"? when they were basically handing the game out like candy to everyone who bought a shiny new graphics accelerator card?

No one here is arguing that MW2 wasnt a "killer app." It was, I think everyone in the Mechwarrior community can agree on that fact [at least those of us who've been around long enough to PLAY Mechwarrior 2.]

BUT, the argument here isn't about how good Mechwarrior 2 is, it's about having this game [MWO] be potentially more balanced and polished if it hadn't had to bow to the clanner kiddies that get their panties wet over the nostalgia factor of "I killed so much stuff in a timberwolf with massed pulse lasers in mechwarrior 2! I want my OP Timberwolf back!"

Also keep in mind, Even for those of us who LOVE Mechwarrior 2... for many of us, our favorite game is "Mechwarrior 2: Mercernaries" which was focused on Succession war era stuff until later in the game when you run across the OP Clans... which while a tense moment in the singleplayer, did not make for fun multiplayer combat. [by the way, in mechwarrior 2: Mercs... you never actually PILOT a clan mech. Innersphere all the way for you m8.]

So, you're not wrong in your assertation that, technically, mechwarrior games that have clan mechs are more popular... BUT your data is faulty when we've had aproximately 7 main line games [including expansions] that included clan mechs you could pilot... but only 2 in the history of the series that only focused on Inner Sphere... basically, we've never actually had a chance to find out if an Inner Sphere only focused game could work.

Oh and about the Kesemi games... you can argue the 3025 one died because of lack of support, but not really true, there were LOTS of people playing that... EA just decided to **** the service. It got cancled for a completely different reason than "no players."

[Khobai]

Quote

or many of us, our favorite game is "Mechwarrior 2: Mercernaries"

which had clans in it.

again every commercially successful mechwarrior game has included clans

you simply cannot write that off as a coincidence. its not. the timberwolf to this day is still the iconic mech of battletech. And its probably the most copied mech design ever.


look how many clan packs sold in mwo... especially the kodiak. and PGI said theyre focusing on clan mechs for the next few mech releases. clan mechs sell. period.

anyone saying they shouldnt have included clans is crazy. that wouldve been a huge stream of income theyd be denying themselves.

Also the upcoming battletech game will probably get pressured into adding clan mechs eventually in an expansion. Because again its a ton of money theyd be losing out on....

Edited by Khobai, 09 April 2016 - 01:27 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Khobai, on 09 April 2016 - 01:16 AM, said:

which had clans in it.

again every commercially successful mechwarrior game has included clans

you simply cannot write that off as a coincidence. its not. the timberwolf to this day is still the iconic mech of battletech.


look how many clan packs sold in mwo... especially the kodiak. and PGI said theyre focusing on clan mechs for the next few mech releases. clan mechs sell. period.

anyone saying they shouldnt have included clans is crazy. that wouldve been a huge stream of income theyd be denying themselves.

Your logic is Faulty Khobai.

"Every person we studied who has cancer, drinks coffee, their for Coffee causes cancer."

^ this is literally, the kind of scientific data you're trying to put forward.

Yes, Mechwarrior 2 Mercs had clans in it, in aproximately 2-3 missions, and at the very end of the game, you also were unable to pilot those machines, and they were brutally unfair encounters.

They were used, properly, as suspense and as boss encounters essentially, and for obvious story reasons to tie the game back into Mechwarrior 2.

However, people didn't buy Mechwarrior2: Mercs, BECAUSE it had clans in it, we bought Mechwarrior 2 Mercs because it was a ******* 3025-era campaign with Innersphere mechs, and a rocking salvage system. It's bloody incidental it has clan mechs in it.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Should just push the timeline, allow mixtech, bring back repair and rearm and give me my Madcat III.
All problems solved.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

LOADED, on 09 April 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

Should just push the timeline, allow mixtech, bring back repair and rearm and give me my Madcat III.
All problems solved.

God no, that just causes more problems.

Mixtech doesn't solve anything frankly. there's no balance when everyone just takes the objectively better gear.

That's not balance, that's lazyness.

At least 3025 era is actually balanced.