44 replies to this topic

[MadCat02]

Clan Canons are just not good at 500 meter range . Even Clan UAC5 or AC5 are not practical because they miss around 60% of their damage do to spread . If you end up on a huge map with Clan Canons you really feel like you have no range weapons to combat LPL or ERL

IS AC5/AC2 with IS quirks are pretty good for long and close range . I can use those builds easily to 800+ meters where Clan canons are best used at around 400 meters so you can actually hit someone .

Also I think IS Canons are easier to use against lights because you will never land 3-5 projectiles in same shoot . So when you use 3 Clan UAC5 you leaving yourself vulnerable to light mechs. Which is why its always better to go for mixed laser builds .

On another topic LBX canons and all variant of that are garbage . I know they ment to be used for Cirtical shoots to destroy components . However when armor is depleted a Laser Vomit will often kill in 1-2 shoots anyway . LBX is terrible at long range and its component destroying aspect is hardly relevant when there are mechs doing 40 damage alphas .

I think almost entire Roaster of AC needs to be raised to compete with Laser Vomit . I know you guys are trying to stick to table top values but its just makes this game miserable .

Buff List


Clan AC5 . Projectile Speed 1150 1300
Clan UAC5 Projectile Speed 1150 1300

Clan AC10 Projectile Speed 950 1100

Clan and IS AC 2 Heat 0.8 0.5 ( AC2 builds are hard to spam if you can't have enough DHS ) Most mech outside of Assaults can't have 3 AC2 and run them properly .

Clan LBX10 Reduce spread by 25% . Damage Per pallet 1.0 1.2
Clan LBX5 Reduce spread by 25% . Damage Per pallet 1.0 1.2
IS LBX10 Reduce spread by 25% Damage Per pallet 1.0 1.2

IS Gauss Rifle and Clan Gauss Cooldown 5 seconds . 4 Seconds ( I still think 5 seconds is too slow ) Reduce Gauss bonuses on IS mechs . Gauss Rifle should not only be used on mechs that can reduce its cooldown .

IS AC10 Projectile Speed 950 1100 ( AC10 has 450 optimal range but its so slow that you will rarely use it at moving target for that range )

Edited by MadCat02, 10 April 2016 - 04:35 PM.

[thehiddenedge]

I came in here thinking you were going to be throwing some crazy ideas out there, but these are actually pretty reasonable.

I love Autocannons, so I'm all for a slight velocity buff.

[Carl Vickers]

+1

I think the auto cannon stuff is doable except I dont think you will get any joy on the Gauss buff.

I would also put the heat on AC2 to 0.6. This is due to some friends of mine running 6 uac2 whales.

I think as well if they want to encourage peeps to move away from the laser meta give mechs like the top performing clanners which can all mount ac's in one form or another 10-20% off the jam chance for UAC's. Doesnt need to be the 30% that is used on under performing mechs but it will encourage peeps to use the uac's more and take in mixed loadouts.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 10 April 2016 - 05:05 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

I'm a Gauss user and I like where they are now with 5s cooldown. Making them to have 4s CD (again) is basically going backward with the balancing.

[Monkey Lover]

If you want to buff ac's then you got to buff both IS and Clan. Spreading damage on the clan AC is by design.

Dont forget clans already have target computer for its AC unlike IS.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 April 2016 - 05:12 PM.

[MadCat02]

Monkey Lover, on 10 April 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

If you want to buff ac's then you got to buff both IS and Clan. Spreading damage on the clan AC is by design.

Dont forget clans already have target computer for its AC unlike IS.

Well the problem is many IS mechs have huge DPS and range bonuses making AC5 builds decent. In comparison Clan AC are less reliable than IS AC which is why I did not suggest buffing IS ac 5 .

The main issues here is that you can't use full Clan AC builds . They are not multi purpose because spread fire is too weak at long range .

Edited by MadCat02, 10 April 2016 - 05:30 PM.

[Gattsus]

I was thinking the same BUT reduce the burst fire-rate of the cUAC, namely the 2-3 bullets that go in 1 tap have the time between them longer, but the bullets themselves travel faster. Otherwise you end pretty much with IS dakka, namely in practice a single bullet.

Edited by Gattsus, 10 April 2016 - 05:47 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

MadCat02, on 10 April 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

...
The main issues here is that you can't use full Clan AC builds . They are not multi purpose because spread fire is too weak at long range .

Don't you know that Dire Whales boat UACs? There are also many builds utilizing 2-3x cUAC/5 and 2x cUAC/10. I never take them to CW though so I don't know their effectiveness at long range where most of firefights occur there according to my experience.

[cazidin]

MadCat02. You have stolen my ideas. I shall now shake my fist at you and then afterwards like your post because I agree with all of these points.

[Khobai]

The problem is lasers still have too much range.

Lasers still dictate the battlefield because of their long range, ease of use, and lack of ammo.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I always find I do better using a Mauler or King Crab with quad UAC5s than a Dire Wolf with six UAC5s.

The high quirks and solid projectiles usually mean the IS Dakka is better at hitting its targets hard and accurately. Mauler always ends up with more kills in a match than I've ever done in a Dire Wolf, all while using 2/3s of the firepower and at 10 tons lighter.

Clans could use some help for their UACs. Infact I see the reason for the laser meta on Clan mechs being their somewhat lacking ballistic ability in comparison to their lasers. Lasers don't jam, lasers don't have spread, lasers don't have travel time, lasers don't have ammo.

[Hit the Deck]

Khobai, on 10 April 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

The problem is lasers still have too much range.

Lasers still dictate the battlefield because of their long range, ease of use, and lack of ammo.

Just increase their burn time (lol).

[cazidin]

Hit the Deck, on 10 April 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Just increase their burn time (lol).

Nope.

[Khobai]

Quote

Just increase their burn time (lol).

You can only increase burn time so much before lasers become useless. The goal isnt to make lasers useless.

Lasers should work best at short to medium range. Ballistics/PPCs should be better at long range. Because weapons with travel time require more skill than lasers so those weapons should always be better than lasers at long range.

[Monkey Lover]

MadCat02, on 10 April 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

Well the problem is many IS mechs have huge DPS and range bonuses making AC5 builds decent. In comparison Clan AC are less reliable than IS AC which is why I did not suggest buffing IS ac 5 .

The main issues here is that you can't use full Clan AC builds . They are not multi purpose because spread fire is too weak at long range .

how are they weak at long range? They might spread more but the IS misses more . Clan still has faster speeds with targeting computers. Why should a lighter weapons that takes up less slots work better than a heavier weapon with more slots anyway? If anything the low end clan mechs with 1 ac weapon should be buffed. Does an ac dire really need a buff?

Really if anything lasers need a nerf there by buffing ac/srm

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 April 2016 - 06:13 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Khobai, on 10 April 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

You can only increase burn time so much before lasers become useless. The goal isnt to make lasers useless.

Don't you agree that between any two extremes, there must lie a point of balance?

[Khobai]

Quote

Don't you agree that between any two extremes, there must lie a point of balance?

Of course. But I think the main problem with lasers is range not beam duration.
Allowing a hitscan weapon to also have long range is ridiculous. It makes long range weapons with travel time obsolete.

Weapons with travel time need to be better at long range than weapons without travel time. And the way to do that is lower the range on lasers.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 April 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

You can only increase burn time so much before lasers become useless. The goal isnt to make lasers useless.

Lasers should work best at short to medium range. Ballistics/PPCs should be better at long range. Because weapons with travel time require more skill than lasers so those weapons should always be better than lasers at long range.

And how about Large Lasers and ER Large Lasers? I'm pretty those aren't supposed to be facebrawl weapons.

[cazidin]

Hit the Deck, on 10 April 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Just increase their burn time (lol).

So. Your solution to make PPCs better is to make lasers worse?

[Khobai]

Quote

And how about Large Lasers and ER Large Lasers? I'm pretty those aren't supposed to be facebrawl weapons.

But they can be used as facebrawl weapons. they dont have min ranges in tabletop do they? theyre meant to be useable at all ranges. ERLLs are supposed to be versatile/diverse weapons that are somewhat effective in all range bands.

While PPC and gauss have min ranges. So do the smaller autocannons. Why? because theyre not meant to be facebrawl weapons. those weapons are meant to be long range weapons. And they should be better at that than ERLLs. But they should be worse at short range.

Also in MWO since PPCs/Gauss have travel time/chargeup/minranges, etc... and ERLLs dont. Thats all the more reason those weapons should be better than ERLLs at long range.

Basically:
ERLL = should be better at brawling than PPC/Gauss, should be worse at sniping than PPC/Gauss
PPC/Gauss = should be worse at brawling than ERLL, should be better at sniping than ERLL

Edited by Khobai, 10 April 2016 - 07:26 PM.