38 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

(As opposed to a slow motion 90s FPS.)

1: Reticle sway when moving. (Faster you move, higher the throttle, the more and faster your reticle sways. Also affected by JJs and MASC.)
2: Heat penalties. (Overheated computers and machines start encountering inefficiencies and slowdowns long before they just shut down or fry.) It's not a binary issue. (And it wasn't in Battletech either.)
3: Relate 1 & 2.
4: Un-**** LRMs.
5: Un-**** the electionic warfare. Battletech had a brilliant electronic warfare setup. Lots of extra sexy information warfare tools (BAP, Artemis, TAG, NARC, etc..) and their soft/hard counter. (ECM) Not the other way around, and certainly not shutting down weapon systems.
6: Rebalance lasers.
7: Give us JUMP jets. (not anti gravity drives of various strengths.)



I gave you the TL;DR first... aren't I so kind?
Now for the people who actually read OPs, who I won't dismiss out of hand for being disengaged and why the world is doomed:

1: Reticle sway. It's a bit silly that these two players are exactly as accurate as each other.
a: Sitting perfectly still and taking aim.
b: Jumpjetting in the air and turning around mid flight at 140kph.
That's HALO garbage. (And they only had one speed.)
Add some risk reward for the individual player's behavior on his/her own performance.. not just a positioning mistake or a binary overheat..
The faster a mech is going, and the harder they are pushing their engine, the less accurate their shots should be. (For the same reason that you or I cannot pick off a barn 300 meters to our right while we're sprinting full tilt and jumping through the air.)
Sway the reticle for movement (including run, jump, MASC) slowdown/stop sway as movement factors decrease/stop. (I'd suggest a curved/progressive growth instead of linear.)

2: Heat Penalties. Also silly is the notion that your machine operated perfectly optimally as you cook it. When your graphics card is starting to overheat, is it news to you when it just shuts down out of the blue, or do you notice drops in FPS first? (If you try to say the first, I know you are lying or oblivious, because I encountered this in my laptop before I got a rig.)
The same goes for most machines. Increasing heat causes problems long before it's critical. (Battletech also accounted for that.)
Here's a simple few things to throw in.
At x threshold: screen has increasing haze (from the heat in your cockpit)
At x threshold: reticle starts to flicker.
At x threshold: accelleration/decelleration/top speed decrease.
At x threshold: weapon recycle slowdown. Missile lockon slowdown
Etc... etc... etc..

3: Relate 1 and 2.
This is pretty straight forward. As you decrease speed/let off JJs and MASC, your reticle shifts back toward that stable thing we have now. Simple add a heat modifier to how long it takes to normalize.
(The higher your heat after a certain threshold, the longer it takes to stabilize the reticle.)
Bingo.

4: Un-**** LRMs. Also pretty straight forward.
A: Speed up the missiles.
B: Reduce their agility. (Should not be guaranteed hits unless the target is an Atlas in a field.
C: Indirect Fire, only with TAG/Narc.
D: Line of Sight = Flat trajectory.
E: Non Line of Sight = High Arc.
F: Remove or reduce warning.
FIXED.

5: Un-**** electronic warfare. RIght now, Electronic warfare is a series of on/off switches that's so binary between useless and powerful that ECM has had to be pared down to a personal anti-missile cloak.
A: ECM does not provide cloak.
B: ECM turns off Artemis, TAG, Narc.
C: ECM is not detected by BAP's extended range.
D: ECM slows down missile lock, but not by much.
E: ECM is not detected without Line of Sight. (Including by UAV)

6: Rebalance Lasers. With increased Heat now providing an actual disadvantage before shut down, lasers mechanics can be improved. Shorten the beam durations across the board, but give them back their proper heat. The trade off of lasers vs. ballistics vs. missiles would be the heat generation, now that heat means something. so shorten the beam duration to give them a real advantage over ballistics in exchange for the increased heat.

7: Give us JUMP jets. Currently, we have hoverjets/anti gravity drives of various strengths, which leads to them being used more as an attacking tool (due to the slow motion stability) rather than a mobility tool. The solution is simple:
1: Give them a very fast acceleration upward, with a suitable reticle jolt and spike in heat, and burn the jumpjet fuel faster.
2: Make them a toggle like Endo, Ferro,, and Artemis. Either all of your jumpjets are there, or none of them are there. (Disable Jumpjets on omnipods if not all Jumpjet omnipods are present.)

That is about as concise as it gets for a major overhaul to make the gameplay much more interesting. If we could get past that, then we could get into cool gadgets like radar ghosts/decoys, magscan, earned respawns, intra-weapon diversification, etc..

Bingo: Thinking Man's Shooter. Compromises and fixes that can satisfy lots of crowds.

[Edited for grammar/clarity]

Edited by Livewyr, 12 April 2016 - 03:48 AM.

[Torric]

While i like the proposals, i am also worried about the fun to be had in such an environment. Those swaying reticles sound like a sure way to promote static gameplay like long range sniper camping. And the Jumpjets... i am afraid they'd break the engine. I'd *really* love to see them tho.

[Livewyr]

Torric, on 12 April 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

While i like the proposals, i am also worried about the fun to be had in such an environment. Those swaying reticles sound like a sure way to promote static gameplay like long range sniper camping. And the Jumpjets... i am afraid they'd break the engine. I'd *really* love to see them tho.

You speak truth. Reticle sway would slow down gameplay, but I think it would do so in the best way. What we have now results in a binary gameplay system.

A: Sitting perfectly still behind as much cover as possible in order to prevent being shot as soon as you move out from cover. (A results of the enemy being able to take precise aim no matter what they are doing.)

or
B: An en masse dash presenting as many targets as possible and focusing them down with disgusting precision. (Everyone hits the CT of that mech as soon as it exposes itself for a very quick death- leading to option A above.)

While the OP definitely enhances the the defense, it also gives rise to uses of area denial weapons such as LRMs. Faster LRMs can be more effective at keeping heads down, providing covering fire. (A concept that is simply laughable in the current gameplay.)

As far as jumpjets- I see your point (since apparently they cannot handle speeds above 170kph, so I guess they would just have to get as close as they can without breaking the engine) They can certainly do better than the anti-gravity drives.

[Dale Grible]

I too like the ideas. Espeacially laser burn redux with heat increase.

Lrm straight tragectory, faster (not too much) with indirect options would make them more viable and promote more frontline use instead of 900m 3rd line non contributers.

Pgi needs to do a 3-5 month gradual adjustment instead of sweeping changes in 1 pass then ignore it for 2yrs. If something becomes op then do a small nerf.

Guess we could do it all on pts but only a small percentage would try it out

[Lugh]

Livewyr, on 12 April 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

(As opposed to a slow motion 90s FPS.)
6: Rebalance Lasers.[color=#959595] With increased Heat now providing an actual disadvantage before shut down, lasers mechanics can be improved. Shorten the beam durations across the board, but give them back their proper heat. The trade off of lasers vs. ballistics vs. missiles would be the heat generation, now that heat means something. so shorten the beam duration to give them a real advantage over ballistics in exchange for the increased heat.[/color]
[Edited for grammar/clarity]

What pray tell are you smoking? Lasers are the TOP END GO TO WEAPON AT ALL RANGES. They don't need rebalancing in a way that makes them better. What they need, is an un-nerfing of their competition.

[Livewyr]

Lugh, on 12 April 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

What pray tell are you smoking? Lasers are the TOP END GO TO WEAPON AT ALL RANGES. They don't need rebalancing in a way that makes them better. What they need, is an un-nerfing of their competition.

This leads me to wonder if you read the OP.

Perhaps you missed or glossed over:
Putting them back to their proper heat. (most of them are reduced in heat currently.)
Actually having penalties for increased heat, making laser spam inadvisable at best.

[Mechteric]

1) No Mechwarrior game before MWO has had any reticle sway (except for Mechwarrior Living Legends which first used it for Jump Jets, just like MWO has now).

The only problem I have with reticle sway is that it would very likely only serve to further entrench the poke and hide gameplay that is already prevalent in the game. That's kinda the opposite of what this game needs to do.


But I completely agree with 7)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 12 April 2016 - 05:01 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

In short, more sim, less CoD with mechs. I like it.

[Livewyr]

CapperDeluxe, on 12 April 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

1) No Mechwarrior game before MWO has had any reticle sway (except for Mechwarrior Living Legends which first used it for Jump Jets, just like MWO has now).

The only problem I have with reticle sway is that it would very likely only serve to further entrench the poke and hide gameplay that is already prevalent in the game. That's kinda the opposite of what this game needs to do.


But I completely agree with 7)

About previous MW titles, that is true, but I think that is in large part due to the inability to implement something a bit more advanced and sim. (Hell, MW4 had these laser beam durations that were actually hitscan FLD...)

The poke and hide is pretty well entrenched now. (Boreal attack is a terrible screen to behold.)
And while as one argued above that could slow down the game due to movement/activity penalties, I think that part of the reason it is entrenched now is because popping your head out now puts you at risk because the enemy can always shoot you. (You cannot take advantage of them shifting position to shift yourself, unless they completely lose LoS.)
And with fixing missiles by making them faster, sitting in one position constantly could be a problem. Missiles could actually be cover-fire weapons (either dodge them, or endure the shake) to allow advancement, or to suppress an open advance.

I think missiles would become key battlefield weapons. They would be useful as area denial, and forcing someone from an entrenched position, but they would also be limited against mobile targets.

Edited by Livewyr, 12 April 2016 - 05:16 AM.

[FerrokenFibrous]

Maybe make the screen and cockpit (alongside those SILLY HOVERING GUNS and the rest of your 'Mech outside of your cockpit whenever you can see them) shake while moving instead of the reticule, and make the 'Mechs actually look and feel like they are actually running instead of walking at a fast pace.

[Snowbluff]

FerrokenFibrous, on 12 April 2016 - 05:55 AM, said:

Maybe make the screen and cockpit (alongside those SILLY HOVERING GUNS and the rest of your 'Mech outside of your cockpit whenever you can see them) shake while moving instead of the reticule, and make the 'Mechs actually look and feel like they are actually running instead of walking at a fast pace.

Real life armor compensates for the vehicles movements when track with its weapons. Swaying weapons is patently ridiculous and unrealistic.

I think the cockpits are on g-force protecting shocks as well.I would like to see a little sway, though.

Edited by Snowbluff, 12 April 2016 - 06:08 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

As an idea, How about...

1. No Sway under most conditions (basically as is now under normal play).

2. Sounds good (with changes). When the mech is in the heat alarm stages...
Flickering HUD and monitors (like monitor animation when being turned on). Mech becomes sluggish because the skill tree gets negated (because of the heat stress on pilot). Maybe fuzzy vision at the very edges of the screen to show the pilot is under stress, but nothing that hampers vision directly forward.

Heat effects should be a bit tangible, but never to the point it makes the game very irritating to play. A flickering HUD, monitors flickering, and a bit of haze at the peripheral are just barely noticable to a person concentrating on play, but it enough to indicate why his/her mech is now more sluggish.

3. No sway, but keep 2.

4. LRM ideas are a solid start. No C or F. Everything else looks ok.

5. ECM No to everything. It needs something, but I don't really like those ideas personally.

6. Since heat effects all weapons (not just lasers), I'd leave weapon values like laser duration as is. See how things pan out first.

7. JJs idea is pretty much a flat no just like ECM. Not crazy on those ideas.

That's just what I like of the OP's ideas (with a few of my own).

[Malleus011]

All great suggestions; if only we could get PGI to implement them.

[MechWarrior414712]

Reticle swaying could be kinda neat. How about it only applies on torso-mounted weapons / arms with no actuators?

[Pariah Devalis]

An alternative to jump jet functionality that doesn't screw over people who are legomeching omnimechs yet would be hard to abuse? A staged all or nothing system.

By that, I mean you can trigger a full burn once for every jump jet you equipped. Each burn would be a violent, fast, powerful affair that shoves your mech off the ground, shaking like an earthquake and generating heat. There is no feathering the jet: once you trigger it, the mech starts rocketing up on, well, rockets. However, if you have two jump jets equipped, you can trigger those twice - either one after the other, or spaced out as you prefer. If you have three jump jets, it should be enough to not only get you high enough to start to have time to shoot at the apex of the second jump, but would also give you a third jump jet to slow your descent to a safe speed.

The more jump jets you equip the higher you can jump. However, the higher you jump the more jump jets you need to effectively slow your descent down. 3 might just barely get you over some terrain high enough to shoot before dropping down, but a more heavy investment with 4 or 5 would be required for the classic "poptart" concept. The tonnage investment would be the tradeoff.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 12 April 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Cy Mitchell]

The OP is one of the better analysis of the problems stunting the game play in MWO. I am not sure what motivates PGI to push this Mechwarrior game wholly in the direction of FPS and away from Sim. Perhaps it is their desire to make it a contender in eSports or to draw in the masses of FPS players but what they have done is take all the uniqueness out of the game.

The suggestions in the OP would be a step the right direction and would fix some of the problems that are really hurting the game play. Right now the game is not fast enough and the TTK is not quick enough for the true FPS players and the ease of targeting, one button insta kills and the frailty of the armored machines are unsatisfying for Mechwarrior fans. The end result is you have a severely compromised game that satisfies no one and as a result has difficulty attracting and keeping any sort of significant numbers of players in its fan base.

I really think this game is no where close to reaching its potential but, in my opinion, in order to do so it must find its identity and embrace its niche of being a Mechwarrior game abd move away from the rest of the FPS clone games.

[EAP10]

I would support everything in this article

[TLBFestus]

Torric, on 12 April 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

While i like the proposals, i am also worried about the fun to be had in such an environment. Those swaying reticles sound like a sure way to promote static gameplay like long range sniper camping. And the Jumpjets... i am afraid they'd break the engine. I'd *really* love to see them tho.

I don't think that this idea is as crippling as you think. Right now players have perfect aim while standing still, and ditto for while moving. As well, those stationary mechs are easier to shoot at.

Adding a bit of reticle sway while moving at higher speeds should not be an extreme penalty and it would cut down on TTK.

Consider too, that stationary mechs are giving up mobility while the other team is moving to flank.

I think it would improve the quality of play overall as it adds more risk/reward into it, sacrificing aim for mobility

[Dale Grible]

Anybody wanna tweet this thread to russ on twitter?

Bishop? Bishop?......Bishop?

[Livewyr]

Snowbluff, on 12 April 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

Real life armor compensates for the vehicles movements when track with its weapons. Swaying weapons is patently ridiculous and unrealistic.

I think the cockpits are on g-force protecting shocks as well.I would like to see a little sway, though.

Unrealistic is the hover bots we have now. I used to drive a Styker, and on top of the vehicle we had was called an "RWS" or Remote Weapon System, it was stabilized, and fairly well, but even it swayed with the vehicle while the vehicle moved... and that was a wheeled vehicle with independent suspension.

Weapon stabilizers do wonders, but they are limited, and none of them are used on walkers. (You should try taking a broom and running around your house, trying to keep it on point.)

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 April 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

As an idea, How about...

1. No Sway under most conditions (basically as is now under normal play).

2. Sounds good (with changes). When the mech is in the heat alarm stages...
Flickering HUD and monitors (like monitor animation when being turned on). Mech becomes sluggish because the skill tree gets negated (because of the heat stress on pilot). Maybe fuzzy vision at the very edges of the screen to show the pilot is under stress, but nothing that hampers vision directly forward.

Heat effects should be a bit tangible, but never to the point it makes the game very irritating to play. A flickering HUD, monitors flickering, and a bit of haze at the peripheral are just barely noticable to a person concentrating on play, but it enough to indicate why his/her mech is now more sluggish.

3. No sway, but keep 2.

4. LRM ideas are a solid start. No C or F. Everything else looks ok.

5. ECM No to everything. It needs something, but I don't really like those ideas personally.

6. Since heat effects all weapons (not just lasers), I'd leave weapon values like laser duration as is. See how things pan out first.

7. JJs idea is pretty much a flat no just like ECM. Not crazy on those ideas.

That's just what I like of the OP's ideas (with a few of my own).

You elaborated somewhat and explained your thinking on number 2... what about the rest?

"Why?"

The Mech Daddy, on 12 April 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Reticle swaying could be kinda neat. How about it only applies on torso-mounted weapons / arms with no actuators?

I could see that, although I might go for reduced rather than none because that maintains a bit of sim, and I don't want to create a new meta of arm mounted weapons so one can sprint through enemy lines at 140kph with arm mounted weapons with torso mounted response at a severe/binary disadvantage.

Pariah Devalis, on 12 April 2016 - 07:12 AM, said:

An alternative to jump jet functionality that doesn't screw over people who are legomeching omnimechs yet would be hard to abuse? A staged all or nothing system.

By that, I mean you can trigger a full burn once for every jump jet you equipped. Each burn would be a violent, fast, powerful affair that shoves your mech off the ground, shaking like an earthquake and generating heat. There is no feathering the jet: once you trigger it, the mech starts rocketing up on, well, rockets. However, if you have two jump jets equipped, you can trigger those twice - either one after the other, or spaced out as you prefer. If you have three jump jets, it should be enough to not only get you high enough to start to have time to shoot at the apex of the second jump, but would also give you a third jump jet to slow your descent to a safe speed.

The more jump jets you equip the higher you can jump. However, the higher you jump the more jump jets you need to effectively slow your descent down. 3 might just barely get you over some terrain high enough to shoot before dropping down, but a more heavy investment with 4 or 5 would be required for the classic "poptart" concept. The tonnage investment would be the tradeoff.

What you have here would definitely be an improvement, over what we have now, but I disagree with the concept. (If that makes sense.)

1: It feels kind of like Super Smash Bros having random mid-air hops.
2: Picturing CoD bunny hopping or the abuse the Timberwolf used for a while. I personally think that might lead to some silliness.
3: It is a bit arcade-y to have the number of jumps correspond to how many jumpjet nozzles are on your mech.

(Definitely agree on the violence of the burn, it is essentially a series of rockets strapped to your back.)

Edited by Livewyr, 12 April 2016 - 08:25 AM.