122 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

LT. HARDCASE, on 12 April 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

Russ has already said he fears the balance of future tech, I think he mentioned Heavy Lasers specifically.

This post was to help alleviate that fear.

[El Bandito]

Wow, not a crappy Gyrok post. Refreshing. HAG looks too strong but overall the balancing is not so bad. Better than what Paul can think of, anyway.

[Seal Farmer]

El Bandito, on 12 April 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Wow, not a crappy Gyrok post. Refreshing. HAG looks too strong but overall the balancing is not so bad. Better than what Paul can think of, anyway.

Hehe, i saw Gyrock post and dismissed it out of hand.

[STEF_]

Gyrok, on 12 April 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Stuff

+1
It's from a bit that I'm saying mwo needs to skip timeline, so we can have fresh tech, fresh weapons, and also mechs.

(although I would like more pgi to make mwo a true game, instead of "5 min. drop" game mode)

[Volthorne]

El Bandito, on 12 April 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

overall the balancing is not so bad. Better than what Paul can think of, anyway.

Did you even LOOK at some of the changes he suggested? Just the IS lasers alone, the changes would completely and utterly make the standard lasers obsolete, more-so than they are now. The two advantages they have right now over their pulse counterparts is a moderately extended range and lower weight - neither of which come close to offsetting the higher damage and shorter burn time. At the very least you'd have to keep the SPL/MPL at their current heat value (4 and 3, respectively) to make it worth even considering taking an SL/ML. The only change in that whole category (ignoring the XPLs, which don't exist and are therefore irrelevant) I would agree to is the LPL, and that would just be to bring it in line with the CURRENT state of ER/LLs, minus the range buff.

The ballistic changes would be utterly ruinous, with the exception of the buffs to LBXs, which is sorely needed.

He even completely ignored missiles! HOW?! LRM20s are effectively worthless! Ten tons of suck! Ignoring literally everything else and assuming that MRMs get implemented in the next three years, it wouldn't even be worth keeping LRM-20s in the game for the IS when MRM-30s weigh the same, take the same number of crits, and deal 50% more damage. It doesn't even matter that they generate and additional 66% heat. You'd have to make MRMs in general even WORSE than LRMs to not wipe out the usage of literally every other missile launcher with the exception of LRM-5s and 10s! SRM-6 that does 10 damage out to 450 meters? Yes please. Forget LRM-15x4 Maulers; You'd be looking at MRM-30x4 Maulers. Round a corner and come face-to-face with one? A winner is you, and your prize is 120+ points of damage!

Edited by Volthorne, 12 April 2016 - 08:13 PM.

[Gyrok]

Volthorne, on 12 April 2016 - 08:11 PM, said:

Did you even LOOK at some of the changes he suggested? Just the IS lasers alone, the changes would completely and utterly make the standard lasers obsolete, more-so than they are now. The two advantages they have right now over their pulse counterparts is a moderately extended range and lower weight - neither of which come close to offsetting the higher damage and shorter burn time. At the very least you'd have to keep the SPL/MPL at their current heat value (4 and 3, respectively) to make it worth even considering taking an SL/ML. The only change in that whole category (ignoring the XPLs, which don't exist and are therefore irrelevant) I would agree to is the LPL, and that would just be to bring it in line with the CURRENT state of ER/LLs, minus the range buff.

The ballistic changes would be utterly ruinous, with the exception of the buffs to LBXs, which is sorely needed.

He even completely ignored missiles! HOW?! LRM20s are effectively worthless! Ten tons of suck! Ignoring literally everything else and assuming that MRMs get implemented in the next three years, it wouldn't even be worth keeping LRM-20s in the game for the IS when MRM-30s weigh the same, take the same number of crits, and deal 50% more damage. It doesn't even matter that they generate and additional 66% heat. You'd have to make MRMs in general even WORSE than LRMs to not wipe out the usage of literally every other missile launcher with the exception of LRM-5s and 10s! SRM-6 that does 10 damage out to 450 meters? Yes please. Forget LRM-15x4 Maulers; You'd be looking at MRM-30x4 Maulers. Round a corner and come face-to-face with one? A winner is you, and your prize is 120+ points of damage!

This is to present new tech.

1.) I ignored LRMs because they require a completely different set of rules to work properly...and because of that, I am not going to go into something that PGI would be less inclined to do.

2.) The changes to IS STD lasers end up making them run even cooler. Additionally, they got range buffs to offset range quirks. The idea would be to make the baseline tech closer to parity and remove quirks.

3.) I suggested changes to LBX only. STD ACs remain the same, and the only weapons that would be burst would be IS/Clan UAC10 and UAC20. The UAC2 and UAC5 both remain single projectile. This brings parity to clan and IS UACs.

4.) Most of the tech I talked about is not in game yet, so ignoring one portion of it on the grounds that it is not in game yet shows that you really did not read the post, or did not pay attention, or both.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

when we get the upgraded mech before the older version... does the timeline matter anymore?

IE Jager / rifleman

[Triordinant]

Should move the timeline BACK to 3015.

[dervishx5]

HEY THIS GUY KEEPS POPPING UP WHEN I TRY TO TALK ABOUT BALANCE. DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO TURN HIM OFF?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Triordinant, on 12 April 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

Should move the timeline BACK to 3015.

Thatd work for all the ppl buying mechs past that date with real money. Or are THEY not the target audience anymore, like the founders before them?

[Navid A1]

The OP's suggestions are actually good.

I support it.

Slight adjustments can be done here and there... but a well thought-out proposal.

Edited by Navid A1, 12 April 2016 - 09:11 PM.

[Volthorne]

Gyrok, on 12 April 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

1.) I ignored LRMs because they require a completely different set of rules to work properly...and because of that, I am not going to go into something that PGI would be less inclined to do.

Then bringing in new tech is clearly a horrible idea that breaks the game beyond the value that the new tech would be worth.

Quote

2.) The changes to IS STD lasers end up making them run even cooler. Additionally, they got range buffs to offset range quirks. The idea would be to make the baseline tech closer to parity and remove quirks.

You also buffed the range on PLs by almost the same amount as you did standard lasers, which, as I stated above, the increased range isn't worth the extra burn time and lower damage, even at a 1t discount.

Quote

3.) I suggested changes to LBX only. STD ACs remain the same, and the only weapons that would be burst would be IS/Clan UAC10 and UAC20. The UAC2 and UAC5 both remain single projectile. This brings parity to clan and IS UACs.

cUACs are already stupidly good in general. Reducing their burst-count increases their PPFLD value. The last thing the clams need is more condensed damage.

Quote

4.) Most of the tech I talked about is not in game yet, so ignoring one portion of it on the grounds that it is not in game yet shows that you really did not read the post, or did not pay attention, or both.

Ignoring one portion of your suggestion to address how the rest of it would impact the current state of balance is a valid course of discussion, as the inclusion of the new tech either only competes with current level-two tech (see XPLs), OR it completely blows all of the current tech out of the water (see MRMs). The vast majority of your "proposal" doesn't actually fix anything; instead, it merely shuffles around the meta slightly, increases the difficulty of actually balancing everything by four-fold, and generally reduces the TTK globally.

If someone wasn't paying attention, it was you. Future-tech has literally never done anything good for the TT or for MWO. Ever. All it does is add power-sprinting. It happened when we got the first round of level-two tech for the IS. It happened when the clams arrived. It will happen again when PGI decides to round out the level-two tech for the IS. What you're suggesting to do is stop sprinting... and instead put on a rocket-powered jetpack. So again:

Edited by Volthorne, 12 April 2016 - 09:33 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Ok i have to cross check all the data but you have done well in translating the power creep of later Tech into mwo.

My main issue without deeper digging - you seem to be oblivious to the challenge that some smaller weapons should not overrule a single bigger one.
A perfect example your light ppc vs heavy ppc
While the HPPC could be of interest for Mechs with some Tonnage but few Hardpoints - Atlas for example - its stupid to mount it on say Thunderbolt or Blscknight Crab...

[Imperius]

Gyrok, on 12 April 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Reddit cross post: https://www.reddit.c..._timeline_skip/

So, thinking about this last night...here were some of the ideas I came up with for bringing in future tech.

Resolving Structure quirks

Buff all IS base structure on mechs:

Lights, Mediums, and Heavies would get a 40% structure buff to base value. While Assaults would get a 35% structure buff to base values.

All structure quirks removed from all mechs after base values adjusted.

To offset the increase in IS TTK, Clan ST speed loss penalty is removed, but retains 20% heat penalty.

Agility quirks

Leave the skill tree as it stands, but take all things removed from the skill tree and add them to the base values for each mech in a given weight class proportionally. This leaves the gap between elited and unelited mechs as smaller than before, but restores the mobility mechs need.

All agility quirks would be removed once base values are adjusted, and some edge cases (MLX, CMD, etc.) could possibly have adjustments to offset any perceived performance deficits.

Laser normalization

IS

SL: adjust heat to 2, increase damage to 4, increase range to 160m

SPL: adjust heat to 2, increase damage to 5, increase range to 140m

ERSL: Heat 3, damage 4, range 195m

SXPL: heat 3 damage 6 range 160m, duration 0.65 seconds

ML: adjust heat to 3, adjust range to 300m

MPL: adjust heat to 3, adjust range to 260m

ERML: heat 4, damage 5, range 360m

MXPL: heat 6, damage 7, range 300m, duration 0.75 seconds

LL: heat 7, damage 9, increase range to 495m

LPL: heat 7, damage 11, increase range to 400m, increase duration to 0.8 seconds

ERLL: heat 8, damage 9, range 675m, duration 1.2 sec

LXPL: heat 10, damage 13, range 495m, duration 1.12 sec

All range quirks removed after normalization

Clans

Remove fall off nerf to all medium and small class lasers

ERSL: adjust range to 225m

SPL: adjust range to 180m, adjust duration to 0.65

HSL: heat 3, damage 6, range 180m, duration 0.8

ERML: no changes

MPL: adjust duration to 0.75 seconds

HML: heat 8, damage 10, range 270m, duration 1.0

LPL: no changes

ERLL: reduce duration to 1.4 sec

HLL: heat 13, damage 15, range 450m, duration 1.3 seconds

Ballistics

All ammo counts increased to 200 damage per ton, STD gauss will be 195 damage per ton, Heavy Gauss will be 198 damage per ton

IS

No adjustments to STD ACs

UAC2 and UAC5 will be single projectile

UAC10 will be 2 projectiles

UAC20 will be 3 projectiles

LBX spread tightened across the board

UAC ranges will be within 10% of their clan counterparts across the board

Clans

UAC2 is unchanged

UAC5 has projectile count decreased to 1 projectile for 5 damage

UAC10 is reduced to 2 projectiles for 10 damage

UAC20 is reduced to 3 projectiles for 20 damage

LBX spread tightened across the board

Eliminate STD Clan ACs, or reduce the projectiles to single projectile weapons

Gauss

IS

STD Gauss

Cooldown reduced to 4.25

Heavy Gauss

18 tons - 11 crits

25 damage - 1 projectile

3 heat

360m range, triple fall off

Cooldown 4.75 seconds with 0.75 second charge

Projectile velocity 1200 m/s

Light Gauss

12 tons - 5 crit slots

10 damage

900m effective range with double fall off

Cooldown 3 seconds with 0.75 sec charge

Projectile velocity 2400 m/s

Clans

HAG20

10 tons - 6 crits

20 damage over burst of 3 projectiles

720m effective range double fall off

Cooldown 4.5 seconds

No charge time

Velocity 2400 m/s

Heat 4

10 bursts per ton of ammo

HAG30

13 Tons - 8 crit slots

30 damage over burst of 4 projectiles

540m effective range double fall off

Cooldown 4.75 seconds

No charge time

Velocity 2000 m/s

Heat 6

7 bursts per ton of ammo

HAG40

16 tons - 10 crits

40 damage over burst of 5 projectiles

360m effective range double fall off

No charge time

Velocity 1600 m/s

Heat 8

5 bursts per ton of ammo

Streaks

IS

Streak SRM4: 8 damage, range 270m, cooldown 4 sec

Streak SRM6: 12 damage, range 270m, cooldown 4.5 sec

ATM

Clans

ATM3: 1.5T - 2 crit, heat 2, damage 3/6/9 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 2.5 sec

ATM6: 3.5T - 3 crit, heat 4, damage 6/12/18 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 3.5 sec

ATM9: 5T - 4 crit, heat 6, damage 9/18/27 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 4.5 sec

ATM12: 7T - 5 crit, heat 8, damage 12/24/26 (ER/STD/HE), range STD 270m, ER 800m, HE 450m, cooldown 5.5 sec

Velocity for ATM STD is 300 m/s, ER is 160 m/s, HE is 200 m/s for 200m then accelerate to 350 m/s past 200m

MRM

IS

MRM10: 3T - 2 crit, heat 4, damage 10, range 450m

MRM20: 7T - 3 crit, heat 6, damage 20, range 450m

MRM30: 10T - 5 crit, heat 10, damage 30, range 450m

MRM40: 12T - 7 crit, heat 12, damage 40, range 450m

Velocity for MRMs would be 300 m/s to 200m then accelerate to 500 m/s from 200m to max range

PPCs

IS

Snubnose PPC: heat 10, 6T - 2 crits, no min range, 10 damage, range 450m, velocity 950 m/s

Light PPC: heat 5, 3T - 2 crits, no min range, 5 damage, range 540m, velocity 1400 m/s

PPC: heat 9, damage 10, min range 90m, range 540m, 1200 m/s

ERPPC: heat 14, damage 10, no min range, range 810m, velocity 1600 m/s

Heavy PPC: heat 15, 10T - 4 crits, damage 15, no min range, range 540m, velocity 1500 m/s

Clans

ERPPC: heat 15, damage 15 (PP), no min range, range 810m, velocity 1400 m/s

LFE

10 crits like CXL, 75% weight of STD engine, no heat penalties on loss of ST

Compact Heat Sink

IS

1.5T - 1 crit, +1.1 to max heat cap, +0.21 cooling per second (internal engine DHS remain unchanged)

Thoughts on other factors not mentioned above

The idea with a timeline skip is not to invalidate anything, but provide options based on need and trade off, I think the above situation does that nicely

AC projectile velocity: I think that reducing projectile counts for CUACs and making IS UACs match is a good way to balance the situation there. As far as projectile velocity for STD ACs is concerned, they may need adjusting once the new tech comes in.

Introducing new tech, by default, will more closely balance the game out because the new tech was intended to compete with clans.

I had some interesting ideas for MRMs/ATMs as to how to not make SRMs obsolete when they arrive...I hope that the idea gains enough traction that PGI would consider such a thing.

As for any other questions, comments, or thoughts, feel free to discuss, as I hope this at least shows the people who were concerned about jumping the timeline forward that a reasonable suggestion can be achieved that does not negate the purpose of the older tech.

I of course support tech advancement game has been stale for a while timeline skip though has nothing to do with it there is no timeline. See Kodiak 3 and how did we fight for Tukayyid 2 times now?

[Imperius]

Triordinant, on 12 April 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

Should move the timeline BACK to 3015.

Go play Battletech by HBS comes out in a year, you'll be fun at their party!

[Karl Streiger]

OK first - most changes are just buffs. But i have taken a closer look towards some of those changes. Unlucky i was unable to complete my algorithm to get exact values. But its accurate enough to compare similar weapon systems. It computes almost all values (range, pellets, speed, heat, weight, ammunition, ultra mode) put it into 6 different values representing the window of engagement (WoE - aka face time)

Lets start with the simple stuff - the HAGs are off.
I applause you to kill the problem with the burst of 40 pellets - but you created another one. Say between the shots there is a volley delay of 0.12-0.15sec. So while you may be able to correct the shots for the HAG 40 its also possible that the target will dive for cover before all of your 5 shots are out. Next problem is the range and the speed of the bigger HAGs.
Plus faster reload for the HAG20 - the final values are - 3036 for the HAG20 but only 440 for the HAG40. You really should think about the ranges or another concept how to bring those unique weapons into the game.

Another problem as said above LPPC...its 2175. This will turn it in the most potent of all IS Energy weapons. Other changes are ok. as said just a buff...where it is currently arround 1000 for PPC, LargeLaser, Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser - it will be ~1200 then. Although the values include the weight what is ok, you would hardly run a single PPC when you could mount 6 Medium Laser - so i would need some other values (speed and load out to compare those values)

[Gyrok]

Volthorne, on 12 April 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Then bringing in new tech is clearly a horrible idea that breaks the game beyond the value that the new tech would be worth.

This statement tells me you did not actually look at the proposal, and you do not understand that we are removing quirks with it as well. To offset removing said quirks, we are buffing range.

Quote

You also buffed the range on PLs by almost the same amount as you did standard lasers, which, as I stated above, the increased range isn't worth the extra burn time and lower damage, even at a 1t discount.

Only the LPL has increased burn duration, and even then, it is already out of line as the hands down most powerful energy weapon in the game. If you are against balancing the game at all, I would ask you to refrain from further posts in this thread. If you are not understanding how the iLPL is the most powerful weapon in the game, and numerous players already agree the burn time should be longer, then ask and I will clarify how that decision was reached as a consensus among informed players.

Quote

cUACs are already stupidly good in general. Reducing their burst-count increases their PPFLD value. The last thing the clams need is more condensed damage.

The IS UACs will have the same FLD. The last thing IS UACs need is to be more FLD than Clans. Since the IS UAC5 is already single projectile, I made it so that would be the largest single projectile UAC for either side, the ones that follow are multi projectile.

If you look, this balances things quite nicely.

Quote

Ignoring one portion of your suggestion to address how the rest of it would impact the current state of balance is a valid course of discussion, as the inclusion of the new tech either only competes with current level-two tech (see XPLs), OR it completely blows all of the current tech out of the water (see MRMs). The vast majority of your "proposal" doesn't actually fix anything; instead, it merely shuffles around the meta slightly, increases the difficulty of actually balancing everything by four-fold, and generally reduces the TTK globally.

We buffed the structure on IS mechs by 35-40% across the board and added the LFE to offset TTK, and clans had ST loss penalties for speed loss removed, while keeping the heat penalty, to offset the TTK for them.

Quote

If someone wasn't paying attention, it was you. Future-tech has literally never done anything good for the TT or for MWO. Ever. All it does is add power-sprinting. It happened when we got the first round of level-two tech for the IS. It happened when the clams arrived. It will happen again when PGI decides to round out the level-two tech for the IS. What you're suggesting to do is stop sprinting... and instead put on a rocket-powered jetpack. So again:

Except that future tech brought more parity to TT CBT. If you were not a 3025/3039 neckbearded grognard, you might actually understand that.

GG.

[Gyrok]

Karl Streiger, on 12 April 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

OK first - most changes are just buffs. But i have taken a closer look towards some of those changes. Unlucky i was unable to complete my algorithm to get exact values. But its accurate enough to compare similar weapon systems. It computes almost all values (range, pellets, speed, heat, weight, ammunition, ultra mode) put it into 6 different values representing the window of engagement (WoE - aka face time)

Lets start with the simple stuff - the HAGs are off.
I applause you to kill the problem with the burst of 40 pellets - but you created another one. Say between the shots there is a volley delay of 0.12-0.15sec. So while you may be able to correct the shots for the HAG 40 its also possible that the target will dive for cover before all of your 5 shots are out. Next problem is the range and the speed of the bigger HAGs.
Plus faster reload for the HAG20 - the final values are - 3036 for the HAG20 but only 440 for the HAG40. You really should think about the ranges or another concept how to bring those unique weapons into the game.

Another problem as said above LPPC...its 2175. This will turn it in the most potent of all IS Energy weapons. Other changes are ok. as said just a buff...where it is currently arround 1000 for PPC, LargeLaser, Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser - it will be ~1200 then. Although the values include the weight what is ok, you would hardly run a single PPC when you could mount 6 Medium Laser - so i would need some other values (speed and load out to compare those values)

Some values could be adjusted, sure...

I tried to differentiate the LPPC and Snubnose PPC from the STD PPC. So, I dropped the velocity on the snubnose so it would not be a more effective lighter PPC. The LPPC only does 5 damage for 5 heat...so I figured it would be good to have a high velocity to ensure the opportunity to hit the target at greater range was possible. Additionally, since it takes multiple energy hardpoints to get the same effect as other PPCs, I felt this was a reasonable trade off. As some mechs may not have the 3-6 energy points necessary to make LPPCs an equivalent option to other PPCs.

The LPPC would end up being an interesting weapon here...it could possibly be slowed down some, however...I am less concerned about 5 damage at a time than I am 15 damage at a time. Which brings me to the HPPC. I tried to make the HPPC "worth it" in relation to tonnage/crit cost compared to the other PPCs to get the same 15 damage as the CERPPC. Which is why the velocity is a bit higher than the CERPPC. I also tried to make the IS ERPPC higher velocity to ensure it would be more effective at longer ranges...for which it was intended.

Edited by Gyrok, 13 April 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[WarHippy]

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

These values actually sound...somewhat salvageable. I have nitpicks all over the place, but I don't see very many things that instantly stick out as being terrible. My biggest concern is the lack of buffs for MGs and AC/2s. That, and you copy-pasted the font as too tiny. Right click and use "paste as plain text" next time...

I'm pretty sure that these weren't written by you.


Well, okay, I did remember a few really bad things. Namely, you forgot the Binary Laser Cannon, Magshot, and AP Gauss Rifle.

I feel much the same, but I will add he might as well forget the ATMs since we can't even get hot swap ammo for the LBX. I suppose they could just let us pick the ammo in the mech lab we could swap between fights.

[Karl Streiger]

Yes i see your reasons. Ok its not really fair of me to ask you to solve the problem that pgi is unable to solve
The LPC won't arrive in clusters of 5 but well depends on the Mech say 30 dmg for the BattleMaster. And 18t for 30 PP dmg is a good trade for IS.

I really would like to see a better solution for alpha boating - and Ghost Heat is not the cure for sure.

Alternative there are 3 solutions
1. Enforced chain fire weapon is triggered with 0.1sec delay(HSR?)
2. Ghost damage - simple based on the principle that 12 7.62fmj don't have the same force as 1 x 90mm shell each shots damage in a volley is reduced
3. decrease damage for better dps - to cause more face time
4. a non forgiving heart system with heat spikes - that enforce chain fire (issue 1 ERPPC vs 5 Small Laser)

You don't have to choose just a reminder why the LPPC got so good values (light weight)