122 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

HAGs fire individual shots like LBX.

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

I see it as being good...but you are forgetting that it is 3 projectiles. The only reason I put the velocity where I did was so that the least potent HAG would have a fair chance of being able to land 3 hits on a target at any kind of range.

The HAG30 is 4 projectiles with 80% of the velocity, and the HAG40 is 5 projectiles with 60% of the velocity.

You certainly do not want a 40 damage weapon firing a burst that can neuter a mech at ~700m...right?

A 20 damage weapon at least gives someone a way off a chance to twist a bit and also affords the chance that some of the burst might not connect, even if part of it does.

Make more sense now?

I didn't forget. You gave it the identical 3 round burst of the UAC20. So even less chance to twist against it than than the UAC20, with it's 2400 velocity (compared to 650).

How can you not see it is superior to the UAC20? Less heat, less tons, less crit slots, double optimal range (plus an additional 360m of long range), almost 4x velocity, identical ammo per ton, identical 3 round burst..

How can you think this is on par with the UAC20?

Edited by Davers, 14 April 2016 - 06:30 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

They put in the Kodiak 3 only because it uses 3053 or older tech. They don't care what year a particular 'mech is released but they said they'll make sure all its weapons and other tech are 3053 or older and it has variants that are pre-3053.

wait that means almost all mechs are ok because they COULD use earlier tech than when they were produced.

AGAIN

/thread

dervishx5, on 14 April 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

HAGs fire individual shots like LBX.

so... we cant have it cause they fired the guy that could actually understand the code?

btw:

roflmao

[Gyrok]

dervishx5, on 14 April 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

HAGs fire individual shots like LBX.

No...HAGs function like a rotary gauss.

Davers, on 14 April 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I didn't forget. You gave it the identical 3 round burst of the UAC20. So even less chance to twist against it than than the UAC20, with it's 2400 velocity (compared to 650).

How can you not see it is superior to the UAC20? Less heat, less tons, less crit slots, double optimal range (plus an additional 360m of long range), almost 4x velocity, identical ammo per ton, identical 3 round burst..

How can you think this is on par with the UAC20?

The UAC20 can double tap. UAC jam chance can be adjusted....and mechs can even be quirked for UAC jam chance if need be...(say something like an Atlas, or other assault with one ballistic slot...)

[dervishx5]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

No...HAGs function like a rotary gauss.

Right, that shoot out 1 slug per point. Then you cluster them in groups of 5 like LRMs. If they did 5 points of damage each then you wouldn't be able to do 18 damage with a HAG 20, for example.

[Karl Streiger]

The HAG 20 as the lighter faster more range UAC20 is valid - Ok no doubletap but that's a not very important trade off

[dervishx5]

Plus I'd imagine you'd have to charge up HAGs like gauss or RACs.

[Triordinant]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 April 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

wait that means almost all mechs are ok because they COULD use earlier tech than when they were produced.

Nope. The 'mech has to satisfy BOTH conditions. It has to use ONLY pre-3053 tech AND it must have a variant built before 3053. That's why there's no Bushwacker, Cerberus or Flashfire (though I wouldn't be surprised if they moved it up a year just for the Bushwacker).

Edited by Triordinant, 14 April 2016 - 09:16 PM.

[Volthorne]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Buffing light mechs is a bad thing? I am confused...

Yes, it is. The power creep is already stupidly high amongst light 'Mechs currently. More importantly, you wouldn't just be buffing light 'Mechs in general. Oh no. You'd be buffing almost exclusively the current/previous top-tier lights. Paired with the structure buff, guess what's making a resurgence? Firestarters. Now they're tougher to kill AND their weapons run cooler/deal more damage! Jenners get the same deal (and they don't even have energy heat gen quirks right now either...). LCT-1E? A little bit hotter overall, but more damage and range. Guess who doesn't benefit? All of the bad lights. They get to stay bad because it's generally not their weapons that hold them back.

Quote

True, however...if they want to run any XPLs to pick up additional range on their other laser vomit weapons...that will more than offset the heat difference between now and after these changes.

As someone else started, XPLs are pretty much garbage. SXPL? Just stick on an MPL: same heat, more range, shorter burn time. MXPL? Also don't bother, they're essentially a poor-man's LLas. LXPL? What a joke!

Quote

Really? Like the 2AC5 + AC2 Shadowhawk at 55 tons with crazy ballistic quirks? Or the plethora of mechs that can run 3 UAC5s/AC5s or even 4 AC2s?

That's a trash build and you know it. To make it even possible you have to put an XL in there, and putting an XL in a Sadhawk is just as bad as putting an XL in an Atlas. The IS doesn't get close to viable 3-ballistic builds until you get to the upper weights of the heavies - the lower-weight heavies with the hardpoints to pull it off require an XL, and usually end up sacrificing armor for ammo.

Quote

Have you played the 5 AC5 MAL? I have, and I have never overheated...ever...

Dance harder.

Quote

Jamming is a thing...as you point out. There are people who run STD Clan ACs, and they even cost an extra crit slot over UACs because LBX sizing.

So...?

People are idiots. Just because you have a UAC doesn't mean you have to double-tap it all the time. Regardless of that, the DPS increase from double-tapping greatly outweighs the risk of jamming. That's why UACs need to increase their burst-count, not decrease it.

Quote

The GRF-3M says hello. You should brush up on this stuff before you come to play...makes the game better for everyone when the knowledge is equal. You are clearly behind the curve here...

The GRF-3M is also the worst Griffin, despite having structure quirks where the other don't. Your point was...?

Quote

You cannot be serious...a QKD would eat a MDD as a snack before breakfast and not think twice about it. What tier are you in again?

Perhaps it's less about the MDD being considered garbage and more about people not using the right loadouts. I've got two that I'm looking at right now that will absolutely lay the smackdown on a QKD, especially if it uses the standard "meta" build.

Tier matters why?

Quote

So buffing their structure and agility is a terrible thing I suppose?

A lot of the unused 'Mechs like the Dragon ALREADY have ludicrous structure and agility quirks. The ones that don't, won't just magically "get better" just because you gave them more structure. They'll still be bad, just marginally less-so.

Quote

That is not what this is doing at all. YOU REALLY SHOULD READ THE POST AND PAY ATTENTION.

I'm paying attention to you trying to take out a molehill with a construction firm and napalm.

Quote

What part of this will replace quirks with new baseline values that will be equal across the range of variants for any given mech are you not understanding?

Why should 1 QKD get different agility/structure quirks than another? Why should 1 BLR have structure buffs to torsos but no others? Why should some hunchbacks have more structure/agility quirks than others?

There is no reason. This proposal makes ALL variants of a given chassis have equally viable base numbers. How are you missing that? I really do not understand how that just flew over your head through all this so far.

So let me ask you this again: how do you deal with some 'Mechs being TOO tanky? Give them negative quirks ala clams 2.0? What value do you start the negative quirk at? What if one variant needs to stand out from its siblings in some way due to geometry, what value do you start THOSE quirks at? Does default loadout play into quirks? If yes, how do you rate the loadout and assign appropriate quirks? How are hardpoints valued?

Some IS 'Mechs are too tough and some are too weak. I get it. Touch them up or dial them back individually as needed based off of their CURRENT status. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water; only suffering lies down that path.

Gyrok, on 14 April 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

Too bad it can only bring 2 and nothing else...especially with a TC.

Three, a TC1, and 27 DHS. Or a TC2 and 26 DHS. Take your pick. The TDR-9s can definitely only take two ERPPCs though.

Quote

There are things like the snubnose PPC and Light PPC that those mechs could take advantage of to gain better heat efficiency with weapons, or similar/greater effectiveness. Not to mention that Compact Heatsinks under this proposal allows IS mechs to use much less space for heatsinks.

CHS are either OP or useless, and snub-nosed/light PPCs either outright replace current equipment or are subject to accumulation abuse (see Karl Streiger's post). The perfect embodiment of power creep.

Quote

The ONLY person making this difficult is telling me that I am?

Looks like you're leaking some salt. You should probably get that looked at.

[Karl Streiger]

Well the HAG is an interesting weapon quiet challenging to find a good set of rules: i have given them a try just for theory crafting. First all have the same number ob pellets, but the bigger have bigger pellets- for "multi shot effect each pellet deals some pinpoint damage and splash damage. So if your target doesn't move and you are able to place all 5 shots of a HAG 40 into his CT- its just 30dmg pp instead of 40.
The big drawback is ammunition and constant reduction in damage but at close range

• HAG20
  
  • Weigh 10t
    
  • Crits 6
    
  • Heat 4
    
  • Damage: 5 Pellets each 3dmg PP and 2x0.5point splash
    
  • Volley Delay 0.15se
    
  • Burst 0.75sec
    
  • Ammunition 45
    
  • Range Eff: 300m
    
  • Range Max: 1980
    
  • Speed 2000m/s
• HAG 30
  
  • Weight 13t
    
  • Crits 8
    
  • Heat 6
    
  • Damage 5 Pellets 4.5dmg pp & 2x0.75 Splash
    
  • Volley Delay 0.15sec
    
  • Burst 0.75sec
    
  • Ammunition 30
    
  • Range Eff 330m
    
  • Range Max 1980m
    
  • Speed 2000m/s
• 
  HAG 40
  
  • Weight 16t
    
  • Crits 10
    
  • Heat 8
    
  • Damage 5 Pellets 6dmg pp & 2x1 Splash
    
  • Volley Delay 0.15sec
    
  • Burst 0.75sec
    
  • Ammunition 20
    
  • Range Eff 360m
    
  • Range Max 1980m
    
  • Speed 2000m/s
  
  </p>

[dervishx5]

That's not how HAGs work though. A HAG 40 spits out 40 slugs.

[Karl Streiger]

dervishx5, on 14 April 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

That's not how HAGs work though. A HAG 40 spits out 40 slugs.

Seriously I know that - and you know what happen when you fire 2 LBX 20? Not in the lore - but in MWO when the server have to compute 40 projectiles

And while its also only 5dmg groups the HAG 40 could as well spit out 8 projectles dealing 5dmg - but while HAG 20, 30 and 40 scale perfectly the usage of the HAG40 would be stupid so its only 5 projectiles with bigger ones for the bigger weapon.
To reflect the multi shot mechanic you have the splash

[dervishx5]

I was thinking you could charge up a HAG like a gauss rifle and then release the rain. A more concentrated circle than LBX, but 20, 30, or 40 slugs.

[Karl Streiger]

dervishx5, on 14 April 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

I was thinking you could charge up a HAG like a gauss rifle and then release the rain. A more concentrated circle than LBX, but 20, 30, or 40 slugs.

turning the HAG into a Super LBX - a kind of Clan Silver Bullet?

While it would be great - the problem could be in calculation - dire wolf _ 2 HAG30 and 2 HAG 20....100 pellets each have to be calculated on its own...but the effect would be the same - you could also create 4 projectiles that spread acordingly and damage all components that were hit by the bullet.
Of course single bullets could hit obstacles - so a compromisse split the one huge projectile in 4-6 smaller projectiles - how they look should not effect the server calculation (so each bullet could look like a cluster of 4-6 pellets

[dervishx5]

Moot point really since new weapons are lostech.

[Navid A1]

Because we did not like paul's infotech warfare with laser optimal range with locks and no hit markers,... i doubt he will take a second look at the weapon balance and stuff..

He is like...." F* you all"

[Gyrok]

dervishx5, on 14 April 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

Plus I'd imagine you'd have to charge up HAGs like gauss or RACs.

No...I did not give HAGs a charge up...but then...I would give RACs a pass on that as well...

[Gyrok]

Volthorne, on 14 April 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

Tier matters why?

Because it does happen to give a relative indication of how much you understand what actually works and does not work. You cannot derp into tier 1 with garbage builds...

Tell you what, I will show you my tier if you show me yours...fair enough?

[Navid A1]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

Because it does happen to give a relative indication of how much you understand what actually works and does not work. You cannot derp into tier 1 with garbage builds...

Tell you what, I will show you my tier if you show me yours...fair enough?

Well, based on my own experience, Tier or PSR is just an XP bar.
I know PGI wanted to create different skill categories... at least that was the intention. But the logic and calculation behind it is just a big fail.

You can totally go max Tier 1 EXCLUSIVELY in sh*tty builds on sh*tty mechs. Its just automatic... it does not matter if you rock or suck... you WILL get to max T1.

High Tier means that you have a large number of games played.

Edited by Navid A1, 15 April 2016 - 06:11 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Balance discussion
=math > XP