30 replies to this topic

[AbsUserName]

Lame idea? I think so.

Now that clan xl side torso destruction implies a speed penalty, we know that overheat can bring the standard penalty: slow-down.

And AMMO EXPLOSIONS from overheating, because if the mech overheats with low heat ballistics/missiles, the pilot should know better!

and that hazy screen of the overheat should do the trick if the mech doesn't shut down. Slower torso twist and arm movement can also represent the targetting penalties for overheating.

Because overheat damage isn't battletech at all.

To get us to speed, a shameless "self promotion":
Overheating Self-Destruction Must Go.

http://mwomercs.com/...uction-must-go/

[AbsUserName]

To be clear, that's what i'm talking about (of course, these rules would have to be reinterpreted for a fps game: targetting penalty=slower reticle movement, mandatory shut down=shut down, press override; the slower movement and ammo explosion can remain as is.)


Heat Points Effects
30 Auto shut down
28 Ammo explosion on a 8+
26 Shut down on a 10+
25 -5 MP
24 +4 to hit
23 Ammo explosion on a 6+
23 Shut down on a 8+
20 -4 MP
19 Ammo explosion on a 4+
18 Shut down on a 6+
17 +3 to hit
15 -3 MP
14 Shut down on a 4+
13 +2 to hit
10 -2 MP
8 +1 to hit
5 -1 MP
source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Do you see? No leg destroyed, no head component destroyed, etc because of heat.

But plenty of penalties to make up for it.

And no damage in an ammo depleted or energy only mech: Just slower, unsteadier, shutdown prone mech

Edited by AbsUserName, 12 April 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Uh what? I think if our heatbar had the coolant level of heat, like MW4, it would make more sense for people. I think it was about 5000kelvin that MW4 had for heat to start to affect you.

Propellant at 5000kelvin or above=spontaneous combustion.

Oh I misunderstanding much. Ignore me.

[AbsUserName]

That dual colour speed bar? This would be very nice for the heat bar:

Up to 100%: green heat bar
from 100% to 200%: yellow heat bar, slow down, possible ammo explosion
from 200% to 300%: red heat bar, slow down, likely ammo explosion
every time it goes above 300%: mandatory shut down, press override to turn the mech on again or wait it cool down. Likely ammo explosion while heat is above 100% even if shut down.

Edited by AbsUserName, 12 April 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[FupDup]

Heat-induced ammo explosions penalize people for mixing ballistics/missiles with energy, because such loadouts still generate enough heat to trip the penalties while also having lots of ammo to explode and kill you instantly.

People who boat lasers have no ammo, making them immune to ammo explosions.

People who boat ballistics have ammo, but their heat is generally low enough that they will never realistically trip the penalty.


Congrats, you just hurt mixed loadouts more than boats.

---

Also, in general, the TT heat table values are based on turn-based heat system where all math is done in a single instant, rather than being spread out in real-time over 10 seconds.

For example, firing 3 PPCs with 28 SHS in Tabletop generates only 2 points of heat. This means that if you fire 3 PPCs, 3 times in a row, you only have a small movement penalty in TT.

In MWO, you instant jump up to 30 heat (ignoring Ghost Heat), which means you get a vastly worse penalty in real-time than in turn-based. In MWO you would shut down instantly because our heatsinks don't instantly dissipate like the TT ones do.

[KodiakGW]

Edit: Misread his intention for change. But stil....

First get the need-to-take-high-alpha-laser-meta changed, then we can discuss overheat destruction. SRM fixes, and the upcoming LBX and PPC fixes are steps in the right direction.

BTW - When I do overheat die, it usually is a cockpit death. Happens a disportionate amount of times. So you can be happy about that.

Edited by KodiakGW, 12 April 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

KodiakGW, on 12 April 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

Somebody must be hurt that their K/D ratio is being hurt by opponents who destruct from overheating.

First get the need-to-take-high-alpha-laser-meta changed, then we can discuss overheat destruction. SRM fixes, and the upcoming LBX and PPC fixes are steps in the right direction.

BTW - When I do overheat die, it usually is a cockpit death. Happens a disportionate amount of times. So you can be happy about that.

Its not just me! Yay! Just curious, do you find the Warhammer to be super guilty of this? Damn RNG is always either CT or Head for override damage for me.

[GreyNovember]

So what OP is saying is Direstars shouldnt die ever from blowing their entire load at once.

I'm game.

[AbsUserName]

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

Heat-induced ammo explosions penalize people for mixing ballistics/missiles with energy,

Only if they overheat before exhausting the ammo. It hurts only the trigger-happy.

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

Also, in general, the TT heat table values are based on turn-based heat system where all math is done in a single instant, rather than being spread out in real-time over 10 seconds.

For example, firing 3 PPCs with 28 SHS in Tabletop generates only 2 points of heat. This means that if you fire 3 PPCs, 3 times in a row, you only have a small movement penalty in TT.

In MWO, you instant jump up to 30 heat (ignoring Ghost Heat), which means you get a vastly worse penalty in real-time than in turn-based. In MWO you would shut down instantly because our heatsinks don't instantly dissipate like the TT ones do.

Establish a timer before the penalties kick in. Problem solved. Also lets people use the cooling shots.

[Windscape]

overriding is the first thing i do when i start up my mech, it is is much better to take some dmg and keep moving and shooting then to shut down and watch yourself slowly die.

plus, only Windscape kills Windscape.

[AbsUserName]

GreyNovember, on 12 April 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

So what OP is saying is Direstars shouldnt die ever from blowing their entire load at once.

I'm game.

Well... suppose we also ditch the ghost heat.

The dire star would instantly shut down because of the excess heat. Even if the pilot engages the override, the mech is slow. The targetting is slower. Sitting duck. And because of the heat level (11erppc x 15 heat = 165 heat; what, half a minute until it is normal heat again?), the mech is also shut down prone: second alpha, after the override (say, less 2.5 heat per sec, so 160 heat): 165 new heat, 160 existing heat = 300+ heat.

At this rate, the mech is immobile (-50 kph due to overheating,in a dire ?) for over a minute (300 heat divided by 2.5 heat/s equals more than 100 seconds until it's under 30 heat again.)

So you want that second alpha before cooling down? Enjoy being immobile for over a minute. Or learn trigger discipline.

[GreyNovember]

AbsUserName, on 12 April 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Well... suppose we also ditch the ghost heat.

The dire star would instantly shut down because of the excess heat. Even if the pilot engages the override, the mech is slow. The targetting is slower. Sitting duck. And because of the heat level (11erppc x 15 heat = 165 heat; what, half a minute until it is normal heat again?), the mech is also shut down prone: second alpha, after the override (say, less 2.5 heat per sec, so 160 heat): 165 new heat, 160 existing heat = 300+ heat.

At this rate, the mech is immobile (-50 kph due to overheating,in a dire ?) for over a minute (300 heat divided by 2.5 heat/s equals more than 100 seconds until it's under 30 heat again.)

So you want that second alpha before cooling down? Enjoy being immobile for over a minute. Or learn trigger discipline.

Here's thing.

It's still a Dire star.

I take this thing into battle fully expecting to not survive; and my only goal being to surprise kill someone. Which is okay, because it guarantees you die if you fire. At the very least, a 1 for 1 mech trade; usually not in your team's favor.

If I'm guaranteed to be able to repeatedly do this, on Override? You've created a scenario where it's actually usable. No ammo to explode. All I have to do is get stuck in, and repeatedly alpha 11 ERPPCs downrange.

[KodiakGW]

Afuldan McKronik, on 12 April 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Its not just me! Yay! Just curious, do you find the Warhammer to be super guilty of this? Damn RNG is always either CT or Head for override damage for me.

Warhammer has been just as guilty as the other ones I recently have been leveling. Although I find my loadouts for it are almost heat neutral. Crabs, Ravens, Hunchback IICs, Grasshoppers, as well as my go-to mech for the 150 match score events - Cicada. The only chassis that died consistently from kill shots before I could get to the point of overheating has been the Archer.

RNG Jesus hates me. Reason why I've been busting them to make the simple code change and get us Clan AC modules. UACs jam 80% of the time after the first shot. Even on the ones that have the 30% chance quirk.

So, you can see why I'm not for adding any more RNG to this game.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Jam chance modules for UAC! 5,10,15,20,25 for the different levels of it.

[DjPush]

Until this game becomes something more than arena death match... Keep dreaming. There is no need to watch your heat because quirks and cool shot can help midigate the side effect of too many alphas. By the time your cools hots are gone and you are near the end of the match with 2 kills and 500 damage... Who cares if you over heat with that last alpha in an attempt to get kill 3. You did your part, slap that overide button and go out in a blaze of glory!

This game is a FPS. Stop thinking like it's some kind of simulator.

Edited by DjPush, 12 April 2016 - 10:05 AM.

[AbsUserName]

GreyNovember, on 12 April 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

Here's thing.

It's still a Dire star.

If I'm guaranteed to be able to repeatedly do this, on Override? You've created a scenario where it's actually usable. No ammo to explode. All I have to do is get stuck in, and repeatedly alpha 11 ERPPCs downrange.

Yep. The dire star is like a turret when overheated. Do you expect people to happily stay in sight of a immobile/slow dire star??? (hehehe slow dire, the irony) I know aiming for a 500+ shot is already hard enough, but aiming with heat penalties, and shutting down after every shot? I don't think it's really viable/usable. With a 15 or 30 minutes time frame (qp/fp), waiting 2 minutes every time the dire shoots is not very useful.

DjPush, on 12 April 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

Until this game becomes something more than arena death match... Keep dreaming. There is no need to watch your heat because quirks and cool shot can help midigate the side effect of too many alphas. By the time your cools hots are gone and you are near the end of the match with 2 kills and 500 damage... Who cares if you over heat with that last alpha in an attempt to get kill 3. You did your part, slap that overide button and go out in a blaze of glory!

This game is a FPS. Stop thinking like it's some kind of simulator.

Well... to be nit-picky, this is no FPS. The weapons aren't at eye level, the terrain gets in the way all the time... It's not first person, it's a vehicle game.

Also, who cares if you're carrying and self destructs, handling the enemy an unexpected victory? I do.

There is merit in pyrrhic victories. Self-destructing is denying this merit.

Edited by AbsUserName, 12 April 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[AbsUserName]

KodiakGW, on 12 April 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

First get the need-to-take-high-alpha-laser-meta changed, then we can discuss overheat destruction. SRM fixes, and the upcoming LBX and PPC fixes are steps in the right direction.

BTW - When I do overheat die, it usually is a cockpit death. Happens a disportionate amount of times. So you can be happy about that.

Well, if the high-alpha-laser-meta mech fires twice, overheats and gets a -50 kph slowdown and targetting penalties, the game would be in the right track.

Also, lights are more penalized for overheating: any side torso blown and it's over, because xl. Heavies and heavier use more std engines.

Lastly, fix LBX as in ammo switching between slug and clustershot?

Edited by AbsUserName, 12 April 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Heat based ammo explosion invoke RNGesus, which by no means belongs in an online shooter.

Please no.

I'm perfectly happy with a multitude of other consequences from high heat:

Slowed movement speeds
Flickering hud.
Increased weapon cooldowns

Whatever it is you want to make up, just not ammo explosions.

[wanderer]

A real heat scale would have been infinitely preferable to "no effect, hit 101%, randomly can have cockpit melt"- especially since overheat damage doesn't scale and hence means you're more likely to die in an overheating light vs. a overheating assault. Overheat past 100% needs to damage equipment, not internal structure.

Edit: Note that this could still take out a cockpit, but the odds are far lower than "randomly melt head"- and the Direstar in question would likely end up with large chunks of it's weaponry and heat sinks melting instead from an 11 ERPPC blast, leaving it still very much a one-hit wonder.

Although TT's "ammo explosion" from overheat translates to "damage ammo" in MWO. Just apply a random damage hit to a random ammo spot, increasing the damage at higher overheat %. Normal odds of an explosion if the ammo location is destroyed (which is 10%).

So overheat would, in that case have to 1) actually deal enough damage to destroy that ammo spot AND 2) trigger the 10% for an explosion.

And yes, lower levels of overheat causing agility loss, speed loss, and (very low) amounts of ammo damage vs. the current system, which is both oversimplistic and imbalanced towards bigger 'Mechs.

Edited by wanderer, 12 April 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[Mawai]

AbsUserName, on 12 April 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

Lame idea? I think so.

Now that clan xl side torso destruction implies a speed penalty, we know that overheat can bring the standard penalty: slow-down.

And AMMO EXPLOSIONS from overheating, because if the mech overheats with low heat ballistics/missiles, the pilot should know better!

and that hazy screen of the overheat should do the trick if the mech doesn't shut down. Slower torso twist and arm movement can also represent the targetting penalties for overheating.

Because overheat damage isn't battletech at all.

To get us to speed, a shameless "self promotion":
Overheating Self-Destruction Must Go.

http://mwomercs.com/...uction-must-go/

There is a difference between changing the maximum speed of a mech when it loses a side torso and constantly tracking the heat of the mech and adjusting performance dynamically. Just because they can do one does not mean that the second and far more complicated one would be easy to implement.

Things to consider:

1) Heat scale penalties would have to server side so there would be lag both turning them on and off. If they are not server side then the player could hack the client to turn off heat scale penalties.

2) Monitoring the heat scale of every mech (other than the shutdown limit) will require more server processes and code. Each of the 24 mechs in the match will be in a constantly changing state of heat effects ... all of which need to be adjudicated server side. This also means that there may be additional problems with your client properly drawing where an opponent would be when you aim at them since heat scale might cause them to suddenly change speed as a result of server intervention as opposed to pilot decision. (though the player probably would not be able to tell the difference).

3) Ammo explosions caused by overheating are a part of Battletech ... but there are those who argue that random number based destruction events should NOT be a part of an online multiplayer video game. Existing ammo explosions are the same way since they depend on the random critical hit system. If you are unlucky you either get blown up or lose a leg due to an ammo explosion. On the other hand, others might argue that it adds flavour.

4) A lot of the heat penalties are to hit modifiers ... how do you implement that? Do you shake the reticle so that players can't aim at high heat? Do you blur the screen to mimic the sweat rolling down the pilot's face? Many of the random effects in Battletech do not map easily into mechanisms for online game play. What sort of penalty would you like to see to make aiming harder when you are running hot?

5) The heat table includes random shutdowns at various heat levels. Sometimes you might be able to fire one weapon without overheating ... other times it might be 3. Also, keep in mind that the heat penalties were only applied at the end of a game turn after the weapons were fired and heat was dissipated by the heat sinks. 15 double heat sinks would keep 2 ERPPCs heat neutral. That doesn't happen in MWO since you would jump to 30 on the heat scale when you fire the weapons and then take 10 seconds to dissipate the heat generated. Insta shutdown just for firing the weapons. So, any implementation of some form of heat scale would require far more thought and design work to map to a real time multiplayer online game than you have put in so far ...


Finally, implementing something like this would require a significant rebalancing since it would strongly impact the way the game plays. Every weapon would need to be rebalanced since high heat weapons generate a large instantaneous heat load that is NOT dissipated for a significant length of time.