37 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I found that when in the Banshee running a 350 standard everyone would aim for the Center torso of my mech, usually with little missing due to how massive of a target the Banshee is and how easy it is to go for the CT on it. Torso twisting could only go so far.

After repeatedly dying to CT coring without losing any side torsos, or in most cases still having decent levels of side torso armor I decided to slap a 375 XL into my Banshee. The games I've had since usually ended up with me surviving to the end or being one of the last to die in a blaze of fire, usually having no armor on any torso and missing an arm or two, and still in the end dying from my CT if I ever did die.

The XL in the Banshee lead to me having higher durability due to increased twisting speed, increased movement speed to get in and out of situations, and more firepower and cooling to take out enemies faster.


But this isn't all, I've also asked a friend to participate. He used a Marauder, he originally used a STD 300 engine but since has swapped to an XL 300 and has now been putting out much more damage but with similar survival rates. My hypothesis is that now that the Marauder has been out some time and people found them to not be favorable for XLs people started to find that all Marauders were running STD engines and no longer went for side torso kills on them.

This is further amplified by using a symmetrical loadout, that way no one focuses one side in particular over the other due to massive firepower in one.


Lastly, I found that there is also a counter effect to this. Mechs that are known to almost always run XL engines such as the Dragon and Jagermech gain a bit of a further bonus to survival when running a STD engine due to everyone trying to destroy a side torso first, leaving their CT relatively unharmed. Running an asymmetrical build also amplifies the effect if the player shields with their weaker side, tricking a less aware enemy into focusing a decoy target.

TLDR: use STD engines in mechs that usually run XLs and use XLs in mechs that usually run STD.

P.S. Don't do it in an Atlas though, people target the side torsos on those due to their overwhelming firepower there rather than thinking it contains an XL engine.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I still blame the skilltree nerf.

Reducing our twisting speed even further, reducing our turn speed even further, reducing Acceleration/Deceleration even further just adds up to more facetime.

Big XL engines are almost necessary anymore to get your twist/turn speeds up to allow you to actually twist out damage.

Assaults got it the worst, except the couple that got twist speed quirks.
Assaults have comparably the largest CT surface area of any weight class, and the slowest twist+movement speed.

Its all the little things.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mister D, on 12 April 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

Assaults got it the worst, except the couple that got twist speed quirks.

Actually lights got it the worst, assaults were barely affected, I mean sure I notice it, but it doesn't change THAT much, not like the speed tweak nerf hit lights.

[Jetdrag]

XL in the banshee is the way to go. Dem big arms. Such speed.

[LORD TSARKON]

I"ve had my Marauders for a week now... and I consistently get to the low 10s or less in percent health when I die.

My current lowest percent before I died was 7 percent ( I once saw an Atlas at 1 percent.... I"ve only seen that once in 3 years)

Marauders have awesome hitboxes similar to Stalkers.... you really should only use Standard engines because their side torsos are really easy to hit (just like Stalker).

But I will give the XL a try... why not

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

LORD TSARKON, on 12 April 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

I"ve had my Marauders for a week now... and I consistently get to the low 10s or less in percent health when I die.

My current lowest percent before I died was 7 percent ( I once saw an Atlas at 1 percent.... I"ve only seen that once in 3 years)

Marauders have awesome hitboxes similar to Stalkers.... you really should only use Standard engines because their side torsos are really easy to hit (just like Stalker).

But I will give the XL a try... why not

What I found is that when a Marauder turns its torso it can entirely block one side from the enemy.

This means that if one torso gets opened up or is badly damaged you can start shielding it very well and if the torso isn't opened up yet you can face tank like normal. The main benefit is that you'll also be carrying a more powerful loadout, meaning you put out more damage or have better cooling meaning you kill the enemy faster meaning you are also taking less damage. Not to mention any speed bonuses.

EDIT:

Also note that the Marauder variants have better torso twist than the majority of Stalker variants and faster speed and a CT that sticks out a little in the front, allowing for better shielding.

Edited by Dakota1000, 12 April 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 April 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Actually lights got it the worst, assaults were barely affected, I mean sure I notice it, but it doesn't change THAT much, not like the speed tweak nerf hit lights.

The DWF was more then barely affected, most light build can still get behind you with NO CHANCE of you turning fast enough to get it off your tail.

But i agree, lots of other mechs got it worse then the majority of assaults or at least it was less noticeable.

Edited by Revis Volek, 12 April 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

One of the reasons that the Banshee gets away with it is because it has terrifying pinpoint firepower. The bonus from running an XL engine is so huge that it lets you vaporize targets before they start contemplating shooting at your side torsos.

This is also why XL engines are generally not a good idea on the Atlas or Highlander, for example. They simply don't have the firepower to vaporize targets, even with the XL engine. The only exception might be the AC20+4xSRM6+Artemis Atlas, but when this thing gets to close range, it's exactly like you say - people go for the side torso because you've almost neutered the mech if you can take out the missiles.

To make use of an XL engine on an assault mech, I'd say it's all about having the right type of hardpoints, right number of hardpoints and the right hardpoint locations.

[Ultimax]

Dakota1000, on 12 April 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

I found that when in the Banshee running a 350 standard everyone would aim for the Center torso of my mech, usually with little missing due to how massive of a target the Banshee is and how easy it is to go for the CT on it. Torso twisting could only go so far.

After repeatedly dying to CT coring without losing any side torsos, or in most cases still having decent levels of side torso armor I decided to slap a 375 XL into my Banshee. The games I've had since usually ended up with me surviving to the end or being one of the last to die in a blaze of fire, usually having no armor on any torso and missing an arm or two, and still in the end dying from my CT if I ever did die.

The XL in the Banshee lead to me having higher durability due to increased twisting speed, increased movement speed to get in and out of situations, and more firepower and cooling to take out enemies faster.


But this isn't all, I've also asked a friend to participate. He used a Marauder, he originally used a STD 300 engine but since has swapped to an XL 300 and has now been putting out much more damage but with similar survival rates. My hypothesis is that now that the Marauder has been out some time and people found them to not be favorable for XLs people started to find that all Marauders were running STD engines and no longer went for side torso kills on them.

This is further amplified by using a symmetrical loadout, that way no one focuses one side in particular over the other due to massive firepower in one.


Lastly, I found that there is also a counter effect to this. Mechs that are known to almost always run XL engines such as the Dragon and Jagermech gain a bit of a further bonus to survival when running a STD engine due to everyone trying to destroy a side torso first, leaving their CT relatively unharmed. Running an asymmetrical build also amplifies the effect if the player shields with their weaker side, tricking a less aware enemy into focusing a decoy target.

TLDR: use STD engines in mechs that usually run XLs and use XLs in mechs that usually run STD.

P.S. Don't do it in an Atlas though, people target the side torsos on those due to their overwhelming firepower there rather than thinking it contains an XL engine.

This will change depending on the quality of opponent.

Very good players will quickly judge whether you are likely STD or XL build based on your weapons loadout and target accordingly.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Ultimax, on 12 April 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

This will change depending on the quality of opponent.

Very good players will quickly judge whether you are likely STD or XL build based on your weapons loadout and target accordingly.

This. And there's also a visible difference in XL-using players' playstyles.

While all pilots will twist away damaged components, players with XL will twist away a damaged ST which seemingly has nothing in it or the arm on the same side. It's a dead giveaway. A deadsiding STD-engine user will instead use the damaged side as a shield; see Stalker users.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 12 April 2016 - 04:09 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Ultimax, on 12 April 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

This will change depending on the quality of opponent.

Very good players will quickly judge whether you are likely STD or XL build based on your weapons loadout and target accordingly.

Well... While I understand most assaults have STDs... Im surprised when i see a banshee with an STD...

While its true, when you see 5 LPL 2 slas banshee... You immediatelly think XL... I find that i still end up coring them or legging them instead of XLing them...

Their ct core is a bullet magnet...

[MechWarrior5152251]

You must suck. I have probably only been CT cored 4 or 5 times out of hundreds of drops in Banshees. I always lose a side torso first, Try not to face tank everything.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Revis Volek, on 12 April 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

most light build can still get behind you with NO CHANCE of you turning fast enough to get it off your tail.

Lights have always been able to do this.

It's ******** when couple with the fact that assaults can only protect themselves from the front.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 12 April 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

Well... While I understand most assaults have STDs... Im surprised when i see a banshee with an STD...

While its true, when you see 5 LPL 2 slas banshee... You immediatelly think XL... I find that i still end up coring them or legging them instead of XLing them...

Their ct core is a bullet magnet...

Why would you attempt to leg an Assault mech?

[Johnny Z]

Great observation.

I always go for CT unless certain circumstances happen like no time and have to gamble etc. This is because of Clan mechs and also for standard procedure reasons I guess.

I never run an XL in any Inner Sphere mech and learn to make the most of it since the durability is worth the extra speed for someone who plays legit as I see it. Support mechs with XL is a different story.

[FupDup]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 April 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why would you attempt to leg an Assault mech?

Legs can't be protected, while torsos usually can be via twisting. Also, especially on assaults, people might strip down the leg armor...

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 April 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why would you attempt to leg an Assault mech?

B/c in most light mechs when you ram up against them, they can't look down far enough to shoot you with all of their weapons.... and a lot of the time they can't even see you. They just have to spray and pray at their feet with arm weapons and hope you die.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 12 April 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

Why would you attempt to leg an Assault mech?

If it's a ballistic-boating assault, there's a good chance that there's ammo stored in the legs. Ammo explosion without case = gg assault, with case = instant killed leg.

In any case, sometimes it's easier to nail an assault's leg. Most players don't give full armour to an assault's legs, and in some maps that may well be all that you can see of an assault. HPG ramps, Bog roots come to mind.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FupDup, on 12 April 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Legs can't be protected, while torsos usually can be via twisting. Also, especially on assaults, people might strip down the leg armor...

True, but I prefer making people twist half the time to protect themselves, thereby temporarily neutralizing their firepower. Now if I see an Assaults leg particularly damaged, then yes I'll focus it. At the beginning of the engagment, I'll focus torsos.

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 April 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

B/c in most light mechs when you ram up against them, they can't look down far enough to shoot you with all of their weapons.... and a lot of the time they can't even see you. They just have to spray and pray at their feet with arm weapons and hope you die.

I can't remember the last time a light was that close to my Banshee to take advantage of that.

[Sorbic]

Mister D, on 12 April 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

I still blame the skilltree nerf.
Assaults got it the worst, except the couple that got twist speed quirks.

Urbies got it the worst. #Neverforget