57 replies to this topic

[Ironically Ironclad Irony]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 April 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

havent been paying attention to units for better than a year. PM it to me lol



My lifeline stretches to BEFORE there were even modems at all.

Does it matter which unit? My point is if we can avoid be douches to one another perhaps we can avoid driving away players.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ironically Ironclad Irony, on 16 April 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

Does it matter which unit? My point is if we can avoid be douches to one another perhaps we can avoid driving away players.

Yeah... but this is a game... on the internet. That will NEVER catch on

[Zordicron]

EvilCatEars, on 16 April 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

Those evil people acting like 12-13 years old (maybe even actually being 12-13 years old) forcing the guilds to disband. Chasing 40-50+ years old, mature people away. On top of that, they are smart too! How dare they?!
Are that the points you two are trying to make here? If its true, then its either quite sad or actually pretty funny (depending on ones point of view).

Making arguments for the sake of arguing isn't smart. It's pretentious.

Arguing trivial minutia during regular casual conversation? Ain't nobody got time for that.


The whiny, entitled, tryhard brats don't force anyone away. The mature people in the group just realize you can't fix stupid and choose to go some place else to play, because it really isn't worth the effort required to tolerate the insufferable, self centered, self serving attitudes and actions of those kind of people. In OP's case, he took his ball to a new court, and when the annoying kid(s) came and asked to play because they ran out of people to annoy, they got told no.

This isn't a job, it isn't school, it isn't the army- no one has to like you here, or even get along with you, in a leisure activity that in the end is simply a social outlet. The normal mature players in this situation realize if annoying disruptive people show their true colors, either leadership of the group has to remove them, or you just leave. The third option is you tolerate the behavior, which most will but only to a certain point.

Sometimes it's as simple as part of the group wants different things, and so the group splinters. But that's not what I was talking about, or what you quoted was talking about here. I hope this adequately answers your (troll?) post.

[Wintersdark]

Quote

The mature people in the group just realize you can't fix stupid and choose to go some place else to play, because it really isn't worth the effort required to tolerate the insufferable, self centered, self serving attitudes and actions of those kind of people.

In a lot of cases - for me at least - it's not even that the kids (and this includes a lot of people in their 20's) aren't being entitled or really anything other than just being kids. But for the same reason you'll find a lot of guys in their 20's don't want to spend their time playing with 9 year old boys, I don't want to spend my time with them. Limited doses are fine, but extended contact makes me tired. Not the gaming itself, mind you, but the socialisation between matches. It's not a fault of theirs, just that our perspectives are too different.

And that's kind of a best case scenario.

On the other end of the scale, you find a lot of younger folk feel their place in a unit is somehow important, they assign way to much value to social standing (that is any value at all) and can't just be friendly and social but have to be better somehow, or whatever else.

Regardless, it's usually easier to just go somewhere else rather than deal with the hassle. We're just here for entertainment and relaxation. Once you start adding ********, it's not relaxing anymore

Edited by Wintersdark, 16 April 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Novakaine]

Mech B I still have my lead "gasp" figures from my old D&D games.
I'm sure you remember the hours of painting and fussing over them.
But to go back a bit further - Avalon Hill squad leader.
Yup surprisingly I still have that box also.
Damn I'm old and now crazy.

Edited by Novakaine, 16 April 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[TLBFestus]

I was more of a "Diplomacy" game kinda guy.

No dice rolls to determine my fate, just good old fashioned negotiations and treachery.

[Wintersdark]

Novakaine, on 16 April 2016 - 07:11 AM, said:

Mech B I still have my lead "gasp" figures from my old D&D games.
I'm sure you remember the hours of painting and fussing over them.
But to go back a bit further - Avalon Hill squad leader.
Yup surprisingly I still have that box also.
Damn I'm old and now crazy.

I sadly don't have all my old minis anymore - a few years ago, I made a big cross country move, and a lot of hard choices had to be made about what came with me. All my old gaming stuff from the 80's and early 90's, all gone

[Afuldan McKronik]

Wintersdark, on 16 April 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

I sadly don't have all my old minis anymore - a few years ago, I made a big cross country move, and a lot of hard choices had to be made about what came with me. All my old gaming stuff from the 80's and early 90's, all gone

That is depressing.

OP, I think you did the right thing. If I disagreed with my unit, I would take the easy way out and disband myself, rather than force someone else out of a unit.

I am a young guy, but not full of myself. I would rather game with older people who aren't interested in trying to start drama. Much more entertaining.

[Sjorpha]

"How important is being right?"

That's an interesting question, my spontaneous answer would be "Very important". But that is probably because the question has two possible meanings.

The first one is how important is the truth or arriving at a true and rational conclusion/solution to a discussion or a problem. That is extremely important to me, I need to be convinced of things to let go of them, I will not pretend that I believe someone is right about something or that a proposition has merit when it hasn't in order to be nice, not ever. That doesn't mean being rude or emotional about it, I'll just say what I believe about it and that's that.

The second possible meaning is "How important is it that you personally are recognized as the one being right?"
Me personally being the one first realizing the truth or proposing the correct solution isn't important in the slightest. I'm just as happy to hear it from someone else, the most enjoyable way to arrive at the truth is in collaboration. But in fact it is actually quite common that one of the initial positions are the correct one, and you have to be prepared to accept that.

What this could mean in a unit is that I will be happy to arrive at the correct strategy for our team to win by listening to someone that realized it or by collaboration, but if I'm the one proposing the correct move I expect people to listen to that as well. I don't think leadership should have any weight in these discussions, the unit leader might be proposing a bad strategy and that needs to be pointed out and scrapped in that case. Leadership should be respected in matches and in terms of responsibility for the unit, but never in terms of pretending the leader or someone else is right when he isn't.

The correct way to relate to truth claims or other propositions is to disidentify yourself from them, if you identify with "your" position then you are most likely wrong to some degree since identification with a position is irrational in the first place it makes the position itself more likely to be irrational.

I've worked a lot with this in creative coaching in the film industry and some other businesses as well, there are a lot of problems with excessive identification out there, especially among leaders and artists. That is where the whole "kill your darlings!" meme comes from, you identify with your script/idea/proposition/position so much that you become unable to see what is actually good and bad about it, so you need someone to help you identify your "darlings" and kill them.

A nice method of breaking identification in meeting is to write down your position/idea/belief instead of saying it, then the notes are scrambled and handed out randomly. You now have to argue the position on the note you got instead of your own. Hearing someone else argue your position and arguing a different one yourself is a great way of breaking identification. You can then pursue the process as normal without the ownership, and that increases the chances for a high quality result.

This is probably not very relevant to the OP

One more thing: I don't believe in a "Right to be wrong" type of ethic. If you're wrong or irrational it is natural that your beliefs are ridiculed, there is no obligation to respect beliefs, only people. If you identify with your beliefs so much that you take ridicule against them personally, that is 100% your problem. This is the problem with religious(and others) people being "offended" for example, they identify with their beliefs and since all religious beliefs are ridiculous they never stop finding cause for offense as people correctly exposes that fact.

That can happen in a game too. A person might claim a "right to be wrong" type of respect about something really stupid, and then proceed to feel offended when "his" tactic/build/playstyle is ridiculed or criticised. This might lead to the type of situation described here, but then again it was probably just someone being a douche.

Edited by Sjorpha, 16 April 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Life Pro Tip; before getting into an argument or debate, ask the other person if they would change their mind given enough evidence or a compelling argument. If not, don't bother to discuss the issue farther with the person.

Edit; I wonder if my unit disolved or if we are up for faction change now. Hmm.

Edited by Afuldan McKronik, 16 April 2016 - 09:47 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Would this be the bunch of people that left, that formed an interim unit, did quite well at the turkey aid 2 event, then some objected to the name, so we changed it, then the people that objected most about the name left, or did nothing, vowing to keep in contact when we all decided to go to other units but then our new website started to turn into a recruiting page, for the new unit, being talked about, rather than a place for the friends to keep in contact, some stopped using it. ?

If so, while the person whom OP is talking about got his just deserts, it also stinks of a double standard, particularly as an alt account is being used to gloat about this idiot.

[Sjorpha]

Afuldan McKronik, on 16 April 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Life Pro Tip; before getting into an argument or debate, ask the other person if they would change their mind given enough evidence or a compelling argument. If not, don't bother to discuss the issue farther with the person.

Good in theory, but it's hard to get an honest reply to that question, it's also a question often asked dishonestly.

The trickiest situation is when the problem with a persons position is a lack of evidence, because the only argument against such a position is to point out this lack of evidence.

Positions such as this held by tradition are the most difficult, such as the belief that there is a non-causal element to decisions (so called "free will") an so on. In order for "evidence" to be presented against a position there as to be some kind of evidence or argument for it in the first place, but some people will try to place the default position on a non-proven positive claim just because that claim feels naturally true to them, this is an almost subconscious shift of burden of proof that is almost impossible to argue with because they won't accept their own lack of evidence as a compelling argument, which means they have subtly stepped out of the realm of rationality.

[Zordicron]

Cathy, on 16 April 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Would this be the bunch of people that left, that formed an interim unit, did quite well at the turkey aid 2 event, then some objected to the name, so we changed it, then the people that objected most about the name left, or did nothing, vowing to keep in contact when we all decided to go to other units but then our new website started to turn into a recruiting page, for the new unit, being talked about, rather than a place for the friends to keep in contact, some stopped using it. ?

If so, while the person whom OP is talking about got his just deserts, it also stinks of a double standard, particularly as an alt account is being used to gloat about this idiot.

I don't know anything about any of that...

But you know, all that stuff you just wrote out there... I mean, man, no thanks. I am just here for smashing robots.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Sjorpha, on 16 April 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

Good in theory, but it's hard to get an honest reply to that question, it's also a question often asked dishonestly.

The trickiest situation is when the problem with a persons position is a lack of evidence, because the only argument against such a position is to point out this lack of evidence.

Positions such as this held by tradition are the most difficult, such as the belief that there is a non-causal element to decisions (so called "free will") an so on. In order for "evidence" to be presented against a position there as to be some kind of evidence or argument for it in the first place, but some people will try to place the default position on a non-proven positive claim just because that claim feels naturally true to them, this is an almost subconscious shift of burden of proof that is almost impossible to argue with because they won't accept their own lack of evidence as a compelling argument, which means they have subtly stepped out of the realm of rationality.

This sounds almost like the straw man argument. Nuances and people not meaning what they say irritate myself, cuz I probably am not the smartest person.

Good point. I just dislike arguments, so I try to step away. I tend to get... Scottish when someone attempts to force something in an argument. So I've tried to keep my above tip in mind.

[Sjorpha]

Afuldan McKronik, on 16 April 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

This sounds almost like the straw man argument. Nuances and people not meaning what they say irritate myself, cuz I probably am not the smartest person.

Good point. I just dislike arguments, so I try to step away. I tend to get... Scottish when someone attempts to force something in an argument. So I've tried to keep my above tip in mind.

Really? I love arguments

This is a typical straw man argument that I've actually seen in real life:

A: I think it libertarianism leads to inequality and suffering, we need to have a tax system for redistributing wealth and providing social security.
B: Why do you hate freedom?

What I described is a very different problem from straw men, one that stems from irrational positions being embedded in culture and therefore confusing the normal intuitions about burden of proof. Consider the two following examples:

Example 1.
A: It's irrational to believe in the tooth fairy, there is no evidence for her existence.
B: Prove she doesn't exist then! (haha, gotcha!)

Example 2.
A: It's irrational to believe in free will, there is no evidence for it.
B: Really? What is your evidence against free will?

In example 1 our sound intuitions about burden of proof remain intact for most people, we quickly recognize B as being wrong and dishonestly trying to shift burden of proof.

In example 2 many people cannot identify B as doing exactly the same thing as he did in example 1 because belief in free will is embedded in our culture, but in fact it has the same burden of proof as belief in the tooth fairy. (or any other positive belief)

Edited by Sjorpha, 16 April 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Interesting. I get too emotional to argue. Too much and I start to loose my calm, knowing this, tryed to stay out of arguments.

[A Bag Full of Puppies]

Cathy, on 16 April 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Would this be the bunch of people that left, that formed an interim unit, did quite well at the turkey aid 2 event, then some objected to the name, so we changed it, then the people that objected most about the name left, or did nothing, vowing to keep in contact when we all decided to go to other units but then our new website started to turn into a recruiting page, for the new unit, being talked about, rather than a place for the friends to keep in contact, some stopped using it. ?

If so, while the person whom OP is talking about got his just deserts, it also stinks of a double standard, particularly as an alt account is being used to gloat about this idiot.

Shhhh you are far too close to this, and if you knew who this was, you *know* I am not gloating.

I am genuinly sad the situation was the tipping point for so many of our friends leaving the game and never returning. I have some incedibly fond memories of our drops and feel like what made it so fun also made us vulnerable to what happened... we didn't act like a group of seasoned guildies... maybe i was to idealistic and naive about how things would/should be.

Please don't doubt for a minute that i want to gloat.

I want us all to contemplate our actions and avoid being needlessly rude, crass, or profane to our peers in this game. I want us to enjoy playing the game-and any role play that may entail, instead of making drama the game itself.

Unrealistic as a whole, yes... but if at least someone recognizes that "karma is a b*tch" or for the selfish reason of "I don't want this to affect me negatively in the future" they rethink their approach to situations to abate flames instead of feed them... I'd be a happy man...

Stand up up for what you think is right? Yes! Shove it down their throat forcefully and berate them? No.

You also know that if you don't know exactly who I am (though I suspect you do) you know how to find out without disclosing the names of any pilots or units mentioned in this thread.

And Cathy please don't accuse me of holding a double standard. Yes we didn't always agree on everything but I respected your opinion and right to do what you want (and I still do!). Please don't compare me to "the other guy" becasue man, that just hurts.

Edited by A Bag Full of Puppies, 16 April 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[TLBFestus]

Afuldan McKronik, on 16 April 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Life Pro Tip; before getting into an argument or debate, ask the other person if they would change their mind given enough evidence or a compelling argument. If not, don't bother to discuss the issue farther with the person.

Edit; I wonder if my unit disolved or if we are up for faction change now. Hmm.

Good idea, but the presenter of this question must also acknowledge the same thing.