19 replies to this topic

[Big Tin Man]

Haven't read the larger threads on 4v4 yet, but we did notice a disturbing trend last night.

While on the attack once we get contact with the enemy, our side focuses on killing, stripping weapons or legging everyone until we've effectively disabled the enemy and we can run off and gather more intel points without getting blasted. After we run off to get more intel (more intel = more advantage for our 12 mans), the enemy mechs are killing themselves via overheating or jumping, and thus denying us additional time to gather intel.

I would propose that for the attackers side, the win condition of all enemy mechs being destroyed needs to be removed. The enemy should not benefit from suicide if they are disabled.

P.S. 4v4 is seriously fun. Knife fighting range mediums and lights

Edited by Big Tin Man, 20 April 2016 - 06:22 AM.

[Moonraven83]

I don't think so. Denying the enemy important ressources is a sign of good skill in many
competive games (DOTA for example, there it's a common thing to last hit your OWN friendly
NPC to deny the enemy ressources and XP).

You did your best to come up with an tactic to maximise intel and they came up with a way to counter it.

[Big Tin Man]

Moonraven83, on 20 April 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

You did your best to come up with an tactic to maximise intel and they came up with a way to counter it.

By that logic, the best course of action for the defense is to kill themselves immediately to deny intel.

The win condition is broken here, as the best the defenders can do is allow the least amount of intel out, and killing themselves furthers this goal.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 20 April 2016 - 06:35 AM.

[Moonraven83]

Big Tin Man, on 20 April 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

By that logic, the best course of action for the defense is to kill themselves immediately to deny intel.

The win condition is broken here, as the best the defenders can do is allow the least amount of intel out, and killing themselves furthers this goal.

This would be against the CoC (non-participation). They would deny you the match.
In your example they did fight you and then suicide to minimize the inevitable loss.
It's a fine line but it's there.

[Davegt27]

4v4 is ok still some problems like the OP said

Seems to be some disconnects from what the patch notes say and things that happen in game

[Big Tin Man]

Moonraven83, on 20 April 2016 - 06:37 AM, said:

This would be against the CoC (non-participation). They would deny you the match.
In your example they did fight you and then suicide to minimize the inevitable loss.
It's a fine line but it's there.

Intentional suicide is still against the CoC, regardless if it is in order to minimize the loss because they can no longer contribute to the fight. Running away from the fight to gather more intel is playing the objective.

This is my point, the win conditions do not align with the CoC and need adjustment.

What if killing all defenders added half of whatever intel was unclaimed to the current total and ended the match? This would discourage suicide and avoid turning the match into just another TDM mode. I still don't like it, because if all of the attackers are legged and the defenders are dead, you still might not be able to get back to the dropship in time and still lose.

[madhermit]

Moonraven83, on 20 April 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

I don't think so. Denying the enemy important ressources is a sign of good skill in many
competive games (DOTA for example, there it's a common thing to last hit your OWN friendly
NPC to deny the enemy ressources and XP).

You did your best to come up with an tactic to maximise intel and they came up with a way to counter it.

It makes no sense though. I mean if they want to rationalize anything in this game.. It makes no sense that defenders who suicide somehow deny the attackers from gathering remaining intel (because match ends when opponent is dead). If we put this on DOTA terms it would be equal to players denying their own ancient so enemy doesn't get a victory.

[Moonraven83]

A good compromise would be that only when the dropship is incomming the attackers can win,
so even if the defenders suicide the attackers get at least 10 intel.

This way it doesn't get harder for the attackers and defenders are not tempted to just suicide-rush but to
gather intel themselves.

[Big Tin Man]

Moonraven83, on 20 April 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

A good compromise would be that only when the dropship is incomming the attackers can win,
so even if the defenders suicide the attackers get at least 10 intel.

This way it doesn't get harder for the attackers and defenders are not tempted to just suicide-rush but to
gather intel themselves.

How is this different than what I originally posted? Attackers kill all mechs, dropship is still triggered at 10 intel points, attackers still need to git to da choppah (or are you implying this no longer necessary, once the DS arrives the match is over?). I like the idea that the defenders could still win if they crippled the attackers enough and they couldn't limp back to the ship in time.

[DarklightCA]

You want them to wait while you collected all the intel? No, if they can suicide they should suicide. You are doing a tactic to gather more intel points and they are preventing that as they should. So long as they played the game and tried to win there is no problem with that.

[Moonraven83]

Big Tin Man, on 20 April 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

How is this different than what I originally posted? Attackers kill all mechs, dropship is still triggered at 10 intel points, attackers still need to git to da choppah (or are you implying this no longer necessary, once the DS arrives the match is over?). I like the idea that the defenders could still win if they crippled the attackers enough and they couldn't limp back to the ship in time.

The differents is they get autowin with 10 intel when the defenders are dead (killed/sucide) without having the chance to gather more intel. You only need one to get to the dropship, so the rest could still gather intel by your idea.

Edited by Moonraven83, 20 April 2016 - 07:45 AM.

[vocifer]

DarklightCA, on 20 April 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

You want them to wait while you collected all the intel? No, if they can suicide they should suicide. You are doing a tactic to gather more intel points and they are preventing that as they should. So long as they played the game and tried to win there is no problem with that.

You would also suicide if the robber gets into your house and immobilizes you? It will prevent him from stealing more?

Gosh.. sometimes logic gets in some weird shape..

[DarklightCA]

vocifer, on 20 April 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

You would also suicide if the robber gets into your house and immobilizes you? It will prevent him from stealing more?

Gosh.. sometimes logic gets in some weird shape..

Are you serious? We are talking about a video game here. The object is to win or deter the enemy, if you lose a fight and the enemy strips you or legs you to the point you can't catch them and they go off capping points to ignore you.

Your only option is to suicide to start the dropship countdown to force them to evacuate or lose. It's a valid strategy to deter that kind of tactic of forcing a fight and keeping one mech alive so they have all the time in the world to get all the intel they want.

Edited by DarklightCA, 20 April 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Moonraven83, on 20 April 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

I don't think so. Denying the enemy important ressources is a sign of good skill in many
competive games (DOTA for example, there it's a common thing to last hit your OWN friendly
NPC to deny the enemy ressources and XP).

You did your best to come up with an tactic to maximise intel and they came up with a way to counter it.

Nah its a bad thing here, because lets be honest, in case of scouting the killing of the enemy should not end the round. It's a bad simulation of what the mode tries to be. It's a badly molded mechnaic.

I eman your idea is just nonsense in that case everoyne could just instasuicide because magically no one can claim intel anymore - which is just a bad simulation of the abstracted model it tries to be.

DarklightCA, on 20 April 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Are you serious? We are talking about a video game here. The object is to win or deter the enemy, if you lose a fight and the enemy strips you or legs you to the point you can't catch them and they go off capping points to ignore you.

Your only option is to suicide to start the dropship countdown to force them to evacuate or lose. It's a valid strategy to deter that kind of tactic of forcing a fight and keeping one mech alive so they have all the time in the world to get all the intel they want.

thats such nonsense and makes no sense, whats happenign when you enemie is dead? you can do whatever you want. In fact killing all the opponents should just keep the timer running (could disconnect the defenders from the game to end theirs earlier) and the scouts can pillage whatever they want within the remaining time. Because thats the correct simulation of what the gamemode tries to be.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 April 2016 - 08:30 AM.

[DarklightCA]

Lily from animove, on 20 April 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Nah its a bad thing here, because lets be honest, in case of scouting the killing of the enemy should not end the round. It's a bad simulation of what the mode tries to be. It's a badly molded mechnaic.

I eman your idea is just nonsense in that case everoyne could just instasuicide because magically no one can claim intel anymore - which is just a bad simulation of the abstracted model it tries to be.

That's called non-participation and is reportable incase you were wondering so that's not a valid strategy. Legging the last mech or stripping the last mech is a valid strategy to gain more intel but it's broken if it does not have a counter to it. If a mech can suicide at that point than they should as it's denying the enemy more intel which is THEIR whole goal.

Lily from animove, on 20 April 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

thats such nonsense and makes no sense, whats happenign when you enemie is dead? you can do whatever you want. In fact killing all the opponents should just keep the timer running (could disconnect the defenders from the game to end theirs earlier) and the scouts can pillage whatever they want within the remaining time. Because thats the correct simulation of what the gamemode tries to be.

You and the guy I am replying to seem to forget this is a video game. The mechanic you are suggesting is completely stupid, all the attackers would have to do is equip the best brawlers they have and kill the defenders than cap everything. That's the kind of strategy you want to promote for scouting? Another skirmish gamemode.

The point of the defenders is to prevent the attackers from gaining intel, by doing that mechanic you are defeating them of that purpose. There is no strategy to that or purpose for that, all it does it turn the gamemode into a easy cheese victory determined by a short brawl.

Edited by DarklightCA, 20 April 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[vocifer]

DarklightCA, on 20 April 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

That's called non-participation and is reportable incase you were wondering so that's not a valid strategy.

I agree with this, but also:

Quote

If a mech can suicide at that point than they should as it's denying the enemy more intel which is THEIR whole goal.

This ^ is an EXPLOIT and should be reported too.
Suiciding should not give either advantage to you or disadvantage to your enemy in a game (except if it's a trade in kamikaze-style).

[DarklightCA]

vocifer, on 20 April 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

This ^ is an EXPLOIT and should be reported too.
Suiciding should not give either advantage to you or disadvantage to your enemy in a game (except if it's a trade in kamikaze-style).

And stripping mechs, not killing them so you can run around the map capping everything for all the intel points isn't exploiting? In Community Warfare they allow mechs to suicide if they are stripped or serve no other purpose so they can get into a fresh mech.

I fully support the tactic of legging mechs or stripping them so you can run around and get more intel points but those mechs suiciding is not really a exploit at that time if there is nothing more they can do. That is the only means defenders have to countering that.

[Big Tin Man]

^^^ This is the exact issue. On defense, playing to win (or minimize the loss) once you are stripped means deliberately suiciding, which is against the CoC as well. So by playing by one rule (play to win), you're violating another (suicide). Welcome to the grey zone of my question. I agree it is not an exploit, but it is created by a conflicting win condition that needs improvement by PGI.

I like the idea of killing all mechs does end the match so stuff isn't drawn out unnecessarily, but there needs to be an additional reward beyond 10 points for doing so. What about this: upon killing all mechs you get # of points capped + 50% of all uncapped points, or 10, whichever is greater. This would encourage the attackers to kill everyone after doing some initial capping to maximize # of intel collected per minute. Drawing the match out to get 1 or 2 more points would no longer be time efficient.

Example:
Attackers collects 7 points
Defense collects 5 points
Mechs find each other and brawl
Attackers win
8 points remained unclaimed
Attackers are awarded 7 + 8/2 points = 11.

Realistically, by stripping and running from the defender, the absolute best the attackers can do is get 15 points, realistically they could get 12-14 with some teamwork at the cost of dragging the match out 3-4 minutes. Awarding the attackers 11 encourages them to end the match and move on.

Sound like a fair solution?

[Mystere]

Why are people defending suicide as a means of preventing the enemy from gathering intel not related to the dead enemy pilots,

If the intel was held by a living soldier, then fine, suicide all the way. BUT THIS IS NOT THAT GAME MODE.

As such, the best solution is to allow intel gathering to continue until the drop ships are triggered and the enemy is extracted. The mission should not be complete until the attackers have successfully left.

Edited by Mystere, 20 April 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[DarklightCA]

Because having a mechanic like that is easily exploited and turns the gamemode into something it should not be, a straight up skirmish every game. As attackers all you need to do is beat the defenders and you get free reign to every single cap point compared to employing actual strategy to gathering the point.

Edited by DarklightCA, 20 April 2016 - 11:16 AM.