88 replies to this topic

[Volthorne]

ScoutMaster, on 24 April 2016 - 12:47 AM, said:

Why so mad? Let me guess, the other account is your clan alt? There is no logic in your argument, the D is still superior to the prime, PERIOD. 9 degrees torso twist can mean the difference between a good shot and a miss when you're shooting someone to your side while running.

1) I have no alt accounts.

2) You seem to be confusing mockery and sarcasm for anger. Would you like me to go get you a dictionary?

Kubernetes, on 24 April 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Um, what? +9 torso twist angle is not insignificant on any mech aside from Urbies. The quirk is helpful if you run a poptart with an ERPPC in each arm--no lower actuators, so any bonus twist angle is a big plus.

The suckonner already has a large enough twist that under no circumstances would an extra 9^o actually matter - it only actually becomes useful if you're going to run a stock+ build on the -D for the 8-piece bonus yaw.

Quote

Personally, I have no issue with omnimech CTs having different quirks. At least it gives you some variability when mastering a chassis. If all the CTs are the same, I invariably end up running the same loadout on all three.

That's not a problem with the CT. That's a problem with the arms/STs and weapons, and what builds you can personally justify as "viable".

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 24 April 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Wow talk about being rather rude. Seriously what quirks are good and bad are COMPLETELY subjective. Why don't you realize what people like and dislike is completely subjective and your opinion only accounts for you and no one else, so what you think sucks may indeed be great to someone else.

OBJECTIVELY, 9^o on top of 100^o (or 105 if elite bonus unlocked) is only 9% (or 8.5%), and players turn their noses up at much higher numbers than that (10% missile velocity, for example). OBJECTIVELY, one suckonner CT having a tiny fraction of extra twist does not make it stand out functionally enough from the others to pick it over any other suckonner CT. OBJECTIVELY, it only matters if you've got the 8-piece bonus.

SUBJECTIVELY, if you think 9^o extra torso twist is going to make your suckonner into a not-suckonner, by all means, be my guest. You won't notice it in-game, and it won't be useful 99% of the time.

[Bishop Steiner]

Volthorne, on 24 April 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

1) I have no alt accounts.

2) You seem to be confusing mockery and sarcasm for anger. Would you like me to go get you a dictionary?


The suckonner already has a large enough twist that under no circumstances would an extra 9^o actually matter - it only actually becomes useful if you're going to run a stock+ build on the -D for the 8-piece bonus yaw.


That's not a problem with the CT. That's a problem with the arms/STs and weapons, and what builds you can personally justify as "viable".


OBJECTIVELY, 9^o on top of 100^o (or 105 if elite bonus unlocked) is only 9% (or 8.5%), and players turn their noses up at much higher numbers than that (10% missile velocity, for example). OBJECTIVELY, one suckonner CT having a tiny fraction of extra twist does not make it stand out functionally enough from the others to pick it over any other suckonner CT. OBJECTIVELY, it only matters if you've got the 8-piece bonus.

SUBJECTIVELY, if you think 9^o extra torso twist is going to make your suckonner into a not-suckonner, by all means, be my guest. You won't notice it in-game, and it won't be useful 99% of the time.

*applause*

I do run an Alt Acct. And the Suckoner is my primary ride on it. And I absolutely would rather use my (I) Prime CT and get my 30% than that extra stuff from the D. Fact is it already does twist like a dream, or I wouldn't get away running stock armor on it.

It's issues are in offensive output, due to limited tonnage and hardpoint numbers. Mobility and Defensively it's a solid mech. It's the fact that it's outpunched by most Mediums, and even some Lights, that hinders it. But it was my favorite Clan chassis before MWO, and I can't bring myself to give up on it. It's jsut a good thing I'm a Medium Jock because that's essentially what it is...an oversized Medium. But if I want a carry harder Clan Heavy, it's the WORST clan heavy for that.

- TBR
- EBJ (glass cannon but very nice on the cannon side, thx hardpoints!)
- HBR (ECM and some solid guns)
- Stormcrow
- MDD
- Orion IIC (Another glass cannon, but with that much firepower?)
-
-
-
-
-
- Summoner

in about that order, lol.

[cazidin]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

*applause*

I do run an Alt Acct. And the Suckoner is my primary ride on it. And I absolutely would rather use my (I) Prime CT and get my 30% than that extra stuff from the D. Fact is it already does twist like a dream, or I wouldn't get away running stock armor on it.

It's issues are in offensive output, due to limited tonnage and hardpoint numbers. Mobility and Defensively it's a solid mech. It's the fact that it's outpunched by most Mediums, and even some Lights, that hinders it. But it was my favorite Clan chassis before MWO, and I can't bring myself to give up on it. It's jsut a good thing I'm a Medium Jock because that's essentially what it is...an oversized Medium. But if I want a carry harder Clan Heavy, it's the WORST clan heavy for that.

- TBR
- EBJ (glass cannon but very nice on the cannon side, thx hardpoints!)
- HBR (ECM and some solid guns)
- Stormcrow
- MDD
- Orion IIC (Another glass cannon, but with that much firepower?)
-
-
-
-
-
- Summoner

in about that order, lol.

All the Summoner needs are ammo quirks.

[Bishop Steiner]

cazidin, on 24 April 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

All the Summoner needs are ammo quirks.

Well, really it needs endo. Ammo quirks doesn't help it with heat issues, etc. But ammo quirks would help as much as I think the very concept is kind of stupid.

[Moldur]

PGI makes all changes to the game in a vacuum. They are punched in by a genie from a bottle that is prone to perversion of anything you tell him. Don't you know that?

"Hey, uh.. Genie, can you do these changes to LRMs?"

Oh sure I can! hehehehe...haha..HA. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA

Edited by Moldur, 24 April 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[cazidin]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2016 - 01:34 PM, said:

Well, really it needs endo. Ammo quirks doesn't help it with heat issues, etc. But ammo quirks would help as much as I think the very concept is kind of stupid.

Right. I was making a joke. Since PGI is adamant against unlocking Endo-Steel or FF for Clan Omnimechs what we need are a tonnage buff quirk and a critical slot neg-quirk. Yes. It's convoluted. Yes. It's kind of dumb. Yes. PGI would do this.

[Malachy Karrde]

I personally think the summoner is fine. If you are careful about what you use and how you use your weapons, it packs a wallop. I fight mine like a warhammer. I avoid direct conflicts and focus on picking off heavies and assaults while they are focused on bigger targets. It's pretty easy to rack up kmdd and kill assists with it. A Ppc and lbx pack a wallop used together, fire and move. It's not a mech that's designed to boat weapons, and this is why the meta try hard group will never consider it good. But it's one of the best support mechs in game if you use it right.

[QuantumButler]

Malachy Karrde, on 24 April 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

I personally think the summoner is fine. If you are careful about what you use and how you use your weapons, it packs a wallop. I fight mine like a warhammer. I avoid direct conflicts and focus on picking off heavies and assaults while they are focused on bigger targets. It's pretty easy to rack up kmdd and kill assists with it. A Ppc and lbx pack a wallop used together, fire and move. It's not a mech that's designed to boat weapons, and this is why the meta try hard group will never consider it good. But it's one of the best support mechs in game if you use it right.

Congrats on giving tips on how to overcome the Summoner's glaring weaknesses.

Can you do well in a peice of trash robot? Yes. Could you do far far far better in just about any other clan heavy? Big fat yes.

Summoner is sub par, it excels at nothing except doing every task worse than all of it's counterparts.

Remember, in MWO "Support" is code for "Can't pull it's own weight and needs to be carried by good players or robots on the team"

What could a summoner with a lbx and ppc do that a mad cat with lbx and ppcs and jump jets can't do?

Edited by QuantumButler, 24 April 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[2fast2stompy]

Malachy Karrde, on 24 April 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

If you are careful about what you use and how you use your weapons

Translation: if you use this exact thing and use it in this exact way, it does this one thing decently kinda sorta.

It's not good. At all.
Just like the Ice Ferret is not good. At all.

They do one or two things decently. The problem is that in both cases, you have either lighter mechs doing the same thing better or a same class or heavier mech doing the same thing MUCH better without any disadvantage over them. Or both. Actually, both.

Yes, I understand you like them, I do too. Yes, you can "make up" for some of their weaknesses with time and practice.
But guess what, you will make EVERY mech work better with time and practice.
There is no reason to pretend a clearly subpar mech is anything other than what it is.

[Malachy Karrde]

Mad cats are alot less durable. Summoner can take a pounding if it needs to and has a smaller profile. It's also faster. Much better at shoot and scoot. I can average 500 plus damage and 2 or 3 kmdd in the summoner pretty consistently at tier 2. I'm going to be rude here, if you think the summoner is crap, you need to learn to play and learn how to make best use of the resources you have. You actually need skill to use the summoner and can't rely on meta boating.

[ScoutMaster]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 April 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

*applause*

I do run an Alt Acct. And the Suckoner is my primary ride on it. And I absolutely would rather use my (I) Prime CT and get my 30% than that extra stuff from the D. Fact is it already does twist like a dream, or I wouldn't get away running stock armor on it.

It's issues are in offensive output, due to limited tonnage and hardpoint numbers. Mobility and Defensively it's a solid mech. It's the fact that it's outpunched by most Mediums, and even some Lights, that hinders it. But it was my favorite Clan chassis before MWO, and I can't bring myself to give up on it. It's jsut a good thing I'm a Medium Jock because that's essentially what it is...an oversized Medium. But if I want a carry harder Clan Heavy, it's the WORST clan heavy for that.

- TBR
- EBJ (glass cannon but very nice on the cannon side, thx hardpoints!)
- HBR (ECM and some solid guns)
- Stormcrow
- MDD
- Orion IIC (Another glass cannon, but with that much firepower?)
-
-
-
-
-
- Summoner

in about that order, lol.

Whoa whoa whoa! The summoner is a pretty subpar mech but when it comes to brawling (5xsrm6) its far better than the orion IIC whose only viable build is the mini atlas (4 srm6 + ac20).

The orion IIC is a steaming pile of dog barf and can't do anything well other than hit terrain with its leg mounted weapons. It doesn't have the speed and maneuverability to brawl as well as the summoner.

[2fast2stompy]

Malachy Karrde, on 24 April 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Mad cats are alot less durable. Summoner can take a pounding if it needs to and has a smaller profile. It's also faster
[...]
You actually need skill to use the summoner and can't rely on meta boating.

Alright, explain to me what this means and why it is so.
Tell me exactly why this mech requires "skill" while others apparently don't.
Not why a particular weapon requires skill. The mech. Other mechs can use the same weapons as the Summoner and are apparently slower and less durable, so what is it about the Summoner that takes "skill", as opposed to another mech?

And since the Summoner apparently can't rely on "meta boating", I guess Gauss+PPC and SRM brawling are not in fact the only things that this mech does remotely well, so please further educate me on these non-meta, skill-intensive builds

[Navid A1]

I want to know what happened to this:

[Malachy Karrde]

My summoner uses ppc, lbx 10, and a lrm 10. Pretty much the opposite of boating. I've also used a streak load out with quite abit of success. 2 lasers (take your pick), 2 streak srm 4, and a lrm pack in the shoulder provides quite abit of flexibility and a pretty good alpha. Can also use a srm 6 and 4 or 2 srm 6. Two ppc and a srm is a pretty decent load out too, though you need to manage your heat. That's why I usually prefer 1 ballistic paired with ppc. The 2 large pulse laser, 2 medium pulse laser build is pretty effective too. Combined with its superior speed, maneuverability, and jump jets, it can handle pretty much any role. I was fighting a Dire wolf tonight, I jumped over him and gave him an alpha in the back. Took 0 damage and killed him in 1 shot. Tried that move with the jump timber wolf awhile back. Didn't clear the enemy mech and got blasted to bits. If you don't know how to fight a summoner, you are going to fail. But in the hands of someone who knows how to build and then utilize it, it's damned effective. Removing it's limitations will make it too powerful to be honest. Fight it like a tougher, faster, more agile warhammer and it will never let you down. Try to meta boat with it and you will fail every time.

[DrxAbstract]

Navid A1, on 23 April 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

For example, WHK-Prime, IFR-Prime and DWF-Prime, all need some sort of incentive with CT quirks, because those are the inferior versions.

If you have the Invasion versions they're a huge advantage! You can earn money faster to buy the better mechs!

[adamts01]

QuantumButler, on 24 April 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Remember, in MWO "Support" is code for "Can't pull it's own weight and needs to be carried by good players or robots on the team"

2fast2stompy, on 24 April 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

Translation: if you use this exact thing and use it in this exact way, it does this one thing decently kinda sorta.
.....
There is no reason to pretend a clearly subpar mech is anything other than what it is.

You two nailed it.

This thing reminds me of my Mist Lynx. I love playing that thing, I think just to kill Cheetahs with a pile of dog ****. That thing sucks and tonnage aside, there's zero reason to take it, the Summoner doesn't even have that going for it, as there are lighter mechs that will own it.

[Widowmaker1981]

Suckoner...

D CT being better is clearly dumb. It doesnt matter if 5% reverse speed and 9% twist arent very big boni, they are boni and there is no trade off - therefore it invalidates all the other CTs. I only own the Prime (i) due to selling the others, because suckoner, and im not going to buy the D for the one. ONE. build that actually does something kinda interesting that other Clan mechs cant match - twin 2080 m/s ERPPCs are kinda fun.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 24 April 2016 - 11:46 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Navid A1, on 24 April 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

I want to know what happened to this:

The truth is, that was just his position at the time.

Edited by QuantumButler, 25 April 2016 - 12:03 AM.

[Navid A1]

DrxAbstract, on 24 April 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

If you have the Invasion versions they're a huge advantage! You can earn money faster to buy the better mechs!

And what about non-invasion variants.
This thread is talking about how better quirked clan CTs can invalidate other variants. Its Omni mechs we are talking about, if a CT has an advantage the others don't, its game over for the other variants. PGI need to understand that when they are just randomly spreading quirks.


Also, in your mind, the biggest advantage of the invasion variants is that you can leave them to gather dust faster... such advantage!

[Aresye]

Volthorne, on 23 April 2016 - 11:19 PM, said:

Whoopee! A WHOLE 5% extra velocity in reverse: the direction you only go if you're already a dead man/woman/pilot. AND it gets and extra 9^o twist to each side? Oh happy day, I can at long last be slightly-better-but-not-really than average!

Get real. Those quirks are worthless, and literally everyone knows it but you; one of them is approaching not-suck, but didn't quite make it. The real quirks for the suckonner are in the side torsos and arms, not the CT.

Just because you make bad decisions and intentionally run something that is inferior to another variant does not invalidate the fact that the other variant is in fact superior.