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Is There Some Reason Folks Still Chain Fire Lrm5S ?!


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#21 WildVector

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 07:09 AM

Sadly both[color=#B27204] Fox With A Shotgun[/color] and [color=#B27204]Wintersdark[/color] are incorrect since they are being too biased and stretching only a portion of the AMS mechanics.

The AMS weakness lies in it's design mechanic, which is OVERWHELMED/OVERPOWERED by the simple chain fire mechanic.

Despite however it was originally released, the current AMS works decent against 1 wave of 5-10LRM BUT IF a second LRM salvo enters it's range while the first salvo is still in transit the AMS system wil REMAIN targeting ONLY the first LRM wave effectively IGNORING the hole of the second wave.

Since there have been so many changes to its base mechanics since it's launch and reinforced by the latest patch changes, we had to test it under several different circumstances.

This not only showed that some old bugs are still around (firing trough terrain, AMS detection blindspots, etc) BUT it also demonstrated that chain fire, ALWAYS overwhelms the AMS detection and target acquisition.

Simplest example is that even IF a missile is about to impact the AMS will shoot at it while the next volley will pass 90% of the distance without even being targeted, when the AMS changes target to the second volley it usually is firing at an angle of 30º or less, which significantly reduces it's effectiveness.

In practicality the current AMS works like a 'cone of fire' weapon, which is why it is so much more effective against the CLAN stream of missiles, as it ONLY aims at a single missile every time. Also the AMS system doesn't shoot only the necessary amount of bullets per missile (ence it's greatest downfall) but a non-stop stream aimed at the position a single missile will traverse.
So this means that against CLAN stream missiles there's a bigger chance of the stray bullets hitting non-targeted missiles BUT it is heavily affected by the angle and spread of the same stream. In the case of IS volleys the fact that the AMS only aims at one nearly guarantees that only 1 or 2 nearby missiles may get hit by a stray bullet since they converge on the target in a near 80º angle.

Simple fact is that the speed and movement vector of the target and the launcher have a very big impact in the performance of any AMS, which is why most decent ligh/mediums pilots do not require AMS.

Although multiple AMS do speed up the destruction of incoming LRMs they are still nerfed HEAVILY by that same mechanic, as they all shoot at the same missile and WILL ONLY change target AFTER the destruction of said missile, so effectively until the AMS recognizes the destruction of the initial missile it keeps wasting ammo on the same trajectory vector ON ALL AMS at the same time.

This is why it is ALWAYS better to have 3 mechs with 1 AMS each in the same vicinity than having triple AMS on a single mech. The crossfire for different ranges will target different missiles while the triple AMS will always focus the same individual missile.

Do keep in mind that the missile thrust vectors are also different between CLAN and IS.

All this to say that LRMs aren't as bad as people label them BUT they are harder to master than most consider, both sides have pros and cons.

Last note, even on other missiles types the AMS can help a bit BUT since there are 2 current harmful mechanics (lack of detection under a certain threshold and AMS detection blind spots), it is not viable UNLESS you can move at +130KM/h and can keep your IDEAL engagement range.

I recommend anyone that wishes to witness/learn more about it to forget the testing grounds and to use private matches. If you wish whisper me here or in-game to further debate the subject.

I may have unstructured sentences or meanings if so inform me so I attempt the proper translation. Posted Image


EDITED for grammar errors Posted Image

Edited by WildVector, 18 May 2016 - 06:37 AM.


#22 mogs01gt

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 10:14 AM

View PostJables McBarty, on 16 May 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Actually did not know this.
I resisted for so long, but what made me do it was watching a friendly MDD circle an enemy brawling atlas at 200m whilst pouring a constant stream of LRM-5s into him. The Atlas couldn't handle it. It was so elegant and terrifying, and it really looked like a Vulture circling its debilitated, decaying prey.
Also for all of the other reasons noted above.
And I find it cuts down on wasted ammo. If you are firing for psychic effect (ie, for the sole purpose of glaring klaxons), then it is better to cut the stream at 2 LRM5s than to waste all 6 in an alpha.

KTO's used to be the king at this until they were nerfed but what you describe is exactly why LRM5s are used. They are support weapons through and typicalyl have low kdr.

#23 Miles McQuiston

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 09:41 AM

Unless there is significant AMS I suggest always chain firing. Quite simply a constant stream of missiles is far more demoralizing than a few large impacts. All things held equal a constant stream of missiles forces your opponent to maneuver, and as he is maneuvering he likely has more cockpit shake and explosion blindness than he or she can effectively negotiate to find appropriate cover and return fire.

In medium mechs chain fire is the preferred method in my opinion because if you are constantly moving to hold locks you are also constantly moving the safe destination for cover from your missiles. If you take up a position near the flank of your enemy close to where a friendly light is moving to score his side/back stabs you will force the enemy from the cover they are using to avoid direct fire from your main force. Simultaneously the chain fire constant impact allows your lights to attack with little threat of return fire from the targeted mech.

Alas my personal opinion is 4xLRM5 is the perfect number. Minimal tonnage investment near constant stream and can be group fired to penetrate AMS with minimal heat penalty. Leaves enough tonnage left over for a pair of LL. Chain fired you are looking at about 6dps sustained with no additional heat sinks.



#24 cgdeth

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 01:19 PM

View PostTordin, on 24 April 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Oh I feel so guilty when I chainfire 9 lrm 5 in my Archer 5W Posted Image

The only drawback is that AMS (really you who hate lrms should invest in this) eats a single lrm 5 cluster to breakfast. Launching two lrm5 clusters or 1 lrm 10 cluster overwhelm one AMS.


I got a KFX with 3 ams, clan range 5 and I'm working on overcharge. xD

Edited by cgdeth, 01 October 2016 - 01:19 PM.


#25 VorpalAnvil

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 12:33 AM

Psst... Hey kid, want to buy a gauss rifle?

Edited by VorpalAnvil, 03 October 2016 - 02:08 AM.


#26 Willothius

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 05:07 AM

View PostWildVector, on 17 May 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Last note, even on other missiles types the AMS can help a bit BUT since there are 2 current harmful mechanics (lack of detection under a certain threshold and AMS detection blind spots), it is not viable UNLESS you can move at +130KM/h and can keep your IDEAL engagement range.


Good read, very nice info all of this.
Some thoughts after this read:

-If 'stray' AMS bullets indeed hit other missiles, wouldn't that increase the effectiveness against (S)SRMs? I've know that AMS 'can' work against SRMs, but I've found it mostly unnoticeable in the field. (Never tried in private/testing though).

-Those issues (detection threshold), you mean distance-wise? That would explain my previous point I guess.. What exactly are the 'blind spots' then?

-So when firing LRM5 in chain: I take it that with the AMS not fully killing off the last nearest missile, it then switches to the next nearest missile, which is probably so closeby by then, that it'll also get less 'full kills' of the next batch of 5. Correct? Or are those 2 salvos not close enough together? Cause that could technically make chaining about equally effective against AMS, no? (Maybe with some awesome Missile-Cooldown quirks it would?)

-Does it take time for the AMS to change it's angle a lot? Let's say, getting LRM'ed from two sides, would it then 'sweep' across the sky, alternatively targetting a missile of both batches of missiles? That would basically mean it 'can't decide' which one to go for, and result in a much less effective take-down rate, right?

-Lastly: can someone then explain why the focus is better when chained? It wouldn't make much sense to me from a physics standpoint: If seperate salvos hit, there's likely to be more spread on the actual impacts (cause no one stands still in a LRM shower). So to offset that spread, the actual initial spread from the launchers has to be way tighter to compensate and make chaining LRMs spread less?
Besides, why the hell would an individual LRM5 launcher suddenly have a bigger spread when fired along with some mates??

EDIT: Or wait, do you guys just mean the spread of multiple LRM5s vs 1 bigger LRM?? Then, yes that's true, but that wasn't the question.. at all.

Edited by Willothius, 04 October 2016 - 05:13 AM.


#27 General Solo

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:08 AM

I use it for heat mostly

When my mech gets heat soaked due to firing LRMs in group fire
I switch to chain if I still have a good target so as to continue firing.
Once I ve cooled I go back to group fire.

I use group fire to maximize damage for each firing window of oportunity
But chain fire has it's uses, heat management and aka lrm5 chainfire CT missile drill.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 04 October 2016 - 06:09 AM.


#28 Kylere

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 11:28 AM

OP demands we play as he wishes. End thread.

#29 B L O O D W I T C H

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 12:12 PM

I only chainfire them for sh!ts and giggles.

1. sounds kinda cool
2. i feast on salty anti-lrm rage

#30 Nightbird

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 07:37 AM

View Postmogs01gt, on 12 May 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

This... and why did it take soo long for someone to post this...


LOL, false

#31 mogs01gt

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:13 AM

View Postironnightbird, on 08 October 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:


LOL, false

??
Its already been proven that LRM5's in chain fire have a smaller spread than when group fired.

#32 Dayuhan

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 11:16 AM

All of the points made thus far are good and valid points. I will add one more that is specific to me. I chain fire to see where the AMS is coming from then I can shift my fire to a target that is farthest away from the AMS 'mechs.

#33 Allgame

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 06:17 PM

I play a lot with Archer 5Ws (5XLRM5, 4XSRM) and Catapult A1s loaded with 6LRM5, so here is my perspective.

First, as has been said previously, it is unnerving to have a constant rain of LRMs raining down on you. You don't really know how many LRMs are coming at you, you only know that the INCOMING MISSILES alarm is blaring and your screen is shaking. It doesn't occur to someone that they are only being hit with a couple missiles, which still adds up fairly quickly. Most people (even/especially assaults) run for cover ASAP when that happens. That suppression effect alone would be worthwhile by breaking up enemy formations, even if the missiles didn't actually do much actual damage.

The second is that chain-fire saves on wasted ammo when you don't know how reliable your lock is, or even where exactly the enemy is on the map. It means that if the target gets behind cover, or they were already behind cover, you only waste a couple missiles. This means (at least with pure LRM boats like an Archer with its enormous magazines) you can afford to shoot at anything that gets locked without fear of running out or spiking your heat unnecessarily at an inopportune time.

Finally, its pretty easy to see if your LRMs are getting eaten by AMS and switch to full volleys. I personally tend to set up two chain fire groups for the same set of missiles, which lets me mix in heavier volleys without having to worry about heat or really thinking about it.

#34 jper4

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:23 PM

they can work as poor man's UAV as well.chain fire a lrm 5 stream at target A just in view on the other side of a tall hill. watch 6 streams of AMS suddenly start spraying the air on the other side of the same hill. presto- you now know there are 7 mechs cowering behind the hill.

plus I like to use it to burn off enemy ams so when the guys with actual LRM boats start shooting at beat up mechs late in the game the other side made be out because they wasted them on my LRM 5s. also I get bored waiting to brawl a lot of the time as the friendly LRM assaults are hiding behind my medium so may as well join in and have something to do early in the match, instead of trying to face fresh enemy heavy/assault mechs by getting impatient.

#35 Kuaron

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:44 PM

Assuming people use AMS. Posted Image

#36 Mad Ox

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:50 AM

Ammo lasts longer and when the target inevitably hide again instead of 3-6 Flights of missiles going to waste only waste 1 maybe 2 flights.

#37 LMP

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 11:15 AM

I chain fire all my LRMs because it’s more fun that way.





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